Bugliosi: Bush can be tried for murder in North Carolina
Submitted by Christian Dem in NC on Sun, 06/01/2008 - 12:59pm
When I first heard that Vincent Bugliosi was coming out with a new book, The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder, I was skeptical--to be sure, Shrub's actions are impeachable ten times over. Bugliosi argues that since Bush took us into Iraq under false pretense, the deaths of every American soldier in that conflict amount to murder. He also argues that even if he isn't prosecuted at the federal level, any state attorney general or district attorney in any state (including here in North Carolina) can indict him for the murders of any soldier from their jurisdiction. However, one piece of evidence Bugliosi outlined was enough to convince me that Bush's actions were more than just malfeasance in office. They amount to criminal conduct for which he should be punished after he leaves office.
As I mentioned on dKos, Bush indicated at a 2003 meeting that he was looking into ways to provoke a confrontation with Saddam--including painting U2s to look like UN aircraft. It's one thing to lie to the American people about war. But if Bush was planning to invade Iraq all along, then the invasion of Iraq is an illegal war of aggression--and the deaths of every American soldier in this conflict are murders for which he is responsible.
Bugliosi points out that while the preferable venue for a murder case against Bush is federal court, under the longarm statutes of most states he can be tried at the state level as well. In this case, it means that Roy Cooper can charge Bush for the murders of the hundreds of North Carolinians killed in Iraq, and any DA here in NC (but for political reasons, most likely in one of the bluer parts of the state) can charge Bush for the murders of any soldier who lives in their county or counties.
I know one thing--sometime in February, I'm writing Peter Gilchrist to demand that he look into prosecuting Bush for the murders of dozens of Charlotte-area soldiers. We all ought to write our DAs and demand that this at least be looked into.
Update: In response to concerns expressed by others, I wish to stress that any prosecution should take place after Bush leaves office, as a president cannot and should not face criminal prosecution while in office.
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And Scott McClellan would be a witness for the prosecution
How many wrongful deaths of North Carolina citizens should go unpunished?
Tolerance ends
I know, and I wish there was a way
to get an up-to-date breakdown by state of how many people have died. I figure it's gotta be somewhere in the hundreds for North Carolina now.
819 wounded North Carolinians, 97 dead.
According to iCasualties.
Heartbreaking.
So 97 counts of second-degree murder
Next question--does Roy Cooper have the guts to bring an indictment? And if he doesn't, what DA would bring one? I would think someone in one of the bluer areas of the state, like Orange or Durham counties, would be the most likely to tee Bush up for this.
Ninety-seven.
Roderic Antoine Solomon, 32, Army Sergeant, Mar 28, 2003 Fayetteville, North Carolina
Brian Edward Anderson, 26, Marine Lance Corporal, Apr 02, 2003 Durham, North Carolina
Roy Russell Buckley, 24, Army Reserve Specialist, Apr 22, 2003 Snow Camp, North Carolina
Alan Dinh Lam, 19, Marine Lance Corporal, Apr 22, 2003 Snow Camp, North Carolina
Michael L. Tosto, 24, Army Sergeant, Jun 17, 2003 Apex, North Carolina
David B. Parson, 30, Army Sergeant, Jul 06, 2003 Kannapolis, North Carolina
Mark Anthony Bibby, 25, Army Reserve Corporal, Jul 21, 2003 Watha, North Carolina
James I. Lambert III, 22, Army Specialist, Jul 31, 2003 Raleigh, North Carolina
Leonard D. Simmons, 33, Army Sergeant, Aug 06, 2003 New Bern, North Carolina
Lunsford B. Brown II, 27, Army Specialist, Sep 20, 2003 Creedmore, North Carolina
Charles H. Buehring, 40, Army Lieutenant Colonel, Oct 26, 2003 Fayetteville, North Carolina
Joseph R. Guerrera, 20, Army Private, Oct 26, 2003 Dunn, North Carolina
Joey D. Whitener, 19, Army Private 1st Class, Nov 15, 2003 Nebo, North Carolina
Henry A. Bacon, 45, Army Sergeant 1st Class, Feb 20, 2004 Wagram, North Carolina
Jocelyn "Joce" L. Carrasquillo, 28, Army National Guard Specialist, Mar 14, 2004 Wrightsville Beach, North Carolina
Marvin Lee Miller, 38, Army Sergeant 1st Class, Apr 07, 2004 Dunn, North Carolina
Elmer C. Krause, 40, Army Reserve Sergeant, Apr 09, 2004 Greensboro, North Carolina
Gregory L. Wahl, 30, Army Sergeant, May 03, 2004 Salisbury, North Carolina
Rodney A. Murray, 28, Army Reserve Sergeant, May 09, 2004 Ayden, North Carolina
Christopher S. Cash, 36, Army National Guard Captain, Jun 24, 2004 Winterville, North Carolina
Daniel A. Desens, 20, Army National Guard Specialist, Jun 24, 2004 Jacksonville, North Carolina
David S. Greene, 39, Marine Reserve Lieutenant Colonel, Jul 28, 2004 Raleigh, North Carolina
Gregory C. Howman, 28, Marine Lance Corporal, Sep 15, 2004 Charlotte, North Carolina
Christopher S. Ebert, 21, Marine Corporal, Sep 17, 2004 Mooresboro, North Carolina
Mike A. Dennie, 31, Army Staff Sergeant, Sep 29, 2004 Fayetteville, North Carolina
Michael S. Voss, 35, Army National Guard Staff Sergeant, Oct 08, 2004 Aberdeen, North Carolina
Bradley S. Beard, 22, Army Specialist, Oct 14, 2004 Chapel Hill, North Carolina
Benjamin S. Bryan, 23, Marine Lance Corporal, Nov 13, 2004 Lumberton, North Carolina
Marshall H. Caddy, 27, Army Staff Sergeant, Nov 16, 2004 Nags Head, North Carolina
David B. Houck, 25, Marine Lance Corporal, Nov 26, 2004 Winston Salem, North Carolina
William W. Jacobsen Jr., 31, Army Captain, Dec 21, 2004 Charlotte, North Carolina
Leonard W. Adams, 42, Army National Guard Sergeant, Jan 24, 2005 Mooresville, North Carolina
William S. Kinzer Jr., 27, Army Sergeant, Jan 26, 2005 Hendersonville, North Carolina
John M. Smith, 22, Army Sergeant, May 12, 2005 Wilmington, North Carolina
Phillip C. Edmundson, 22, Army Corporal, Jun 01, 2005 Wilson, North Carolina
Monta S. Ruth, 26, Army Sergeant, Aug 31, 2005 Winston-Salem, North Carolina
Kevin M. Jones, 21, Army Corporal, Sep 22, 2005 Washington, North Carolina
Mark P. Adams, 24, Marine Reserve Sergeant, Oct 15, 2005 Morrisville, North Carolina
Andrew D. Russoli, 21, Marine Lance Corporal, Oct 20, 2005 Greensboro, North Carolina
Kenneth J. Butler, 19, Marine Lance Corporal, Oct 21, 2005 Rowan, North Carolina
Benny Gray Cockerham III, 21, Marine Corporal, Oct 21, 2005 Conover, North Carolina
Christopher W. Thompson, 25, Navy Petty Officer 3rd Class, Oct 21, 2005 North Wilkesboro, North Carolina
Darrell W. Boatman, 38, Marine Gunnery Sergeant, Nov 04, 2005 Fayetteville, North Carolina
Daniel Freeman Swaim, 19, Marine Lance Corporal, Nov 10, 2005 Yadkinville, North Carolina
Aaron M. Forbes, 24, Army Corporal, Dec 28, 2005 Oak Island, North Carolina
Prince K. Teewia, 27, Army Specialist, Dec 29, 2005 Durham, North Carolina
Robert T. Johnson, 20, Army Reserve Specialist, Jan 07, 2006 Erwin, North Carolina
Jeriad P. Jacobs, 19, Marine Lance Corporal, Jan 07, 2006 Clayton, North Carolina
Mitchell K. Carver Jr., 31, Army Chief Warrant Officer 3, Jan 13, 2006 Charlotte, North Carolina
Felipe C. Barbosa, 21, Marine Corporal, Jan 28, 2006 High Point, North Carolina
David S. Parr, 22, Marine Lance Corporal, Feb 06, 2006 Benson, North Carolina
Darrell P. Clay, 34, Army Staff Sergeant, Apr 01, 2006 Fayetteville, North Carolina
Shawn R. Creighton, 21, Army Corporal, Apr 08, 2006 Windsor, North Carolina
Kenneth D. Hess, 26, Army Sergeant, Apr 11, 2006 Asheville, North Carolina
Jason C. Ramseyer, 28, Marine Staff Sergeant, Apr 20, 2006 Lenoir, North Carolina
Adam Lucas, 20, Marine Lance Corporal, May 26, 2006 Greensboro, North Carolina
Christopher N. White, 23, Marine Private 1st Class, Jun 20, 2006 Southport, North Carolina
Christopher T. Pate, 29, Marine Reserve Captain, Jul 21, 2006 Hampstead, North Carolina
Enrique Henry Sanchez, 21, Marine Private 1st Class, Jul 27, 2006 Garner, North Carolina
Darry Benson, 46, Army National Guard Sergeant, Aug 27, 2006 Winterville, North Carolina
Cliff Golla, 21, Marine Lance Corporal, Sep 01, 2006 Charlotte, North Carolina
Robert Thomas Callahan, 22, Army Corporal, Sep 19, 2006 Jamestown, North Carolina
Joshua Deese, 25, Army 1st Lieutenant, Oct 15, 2006 Robeson County, North Carolina
Patrick O. Barlow, 42, Army Staff Sergeant, Oct 18, 2006 Greensboro, North Carolina
Nathan R. Elrod, 20, Marine Lance Corporal, Oct 21, 2006 Salisbury, North Carolina
David G. Taylor, 37, Army Major, Oct 22, 2006 Apex, North Carolina
Misael Martinez, 24, Army Staff Sergeant, Nov 11, 2006 Chapel Hill, North Carolina
Nicholas R. Gibbs, 25, Army Specialist, Dec 06, 2006 Stokesdale, North Carolina
Jason Huffman, 23, Army Corporal, Dec 06, 2006 Conover, North Carolina
Shawn M. Murphy, 24, Army Private 1st Class, Dec 10, 2006 Fort Bragg, North Carolina
Sandra S. Grant, 23, Navy Seaman, Dec 31, 2006 Linwood, North Carolina
John D. Rode, 24, Army Sergeant, Feb 14, 2007 Pineville, North Carolina
Montrel S. Mcarn, 21, Army Specialist, Feb 19, 2007 Raeford, North Carolina
Ryan D. Russell, 20, Army Specialist, Mar 05, 2007 Elm City, North Carolina
Eric R. Vick, 25, Army Staff Sergeant, Apr 01, 2007 Spring Hope, North Carolina
Ebe F. Emolo, 33, Army Specialist, Apr 07, 2007 Greensboro, North Carolina
Brian Lee Holden, 20, Army Private 1st Class, Apr 09, 2007 Claremont, North Carolina
Larry R. Bowman, 29, Army Sergeant, Apr 13, 2007 Granite Falls, North Carolina
William C. Moore, 27, Army Staff Sergeant, Apr 23, 2007 Benson, North Carolina
Michael J. Rodriguez, 20, Army Specialist, Apr 23, 2007 Sanford, North Carolina
Johnathan E. Kirk, 25, Marine Lance Corporal, May 01, 2007 Belhaven, North Carolina
Greg L. Sutton, 38, Army Sergeant 1st Class, Jun 06, 2007 Spring Lake, North Carolina
William C. Johnson, 22, Army Private 1st Class, Jun 12, 2007 Oxford, North Carolina
Darryl W. Linder, 23, Army Specialist, Jun 19, 2007 Hickory, North Carolina
Courtney T. Johnson, 26, Army Sergeant, Jul 11, 2007 Garner, North Carolina
Steven R. Jewell, 26, Army Specialist, Aug 14, 2007 Bridgeton, North Carolina
Michael S. Fielder, 35, Army Captain, Aug 19, 2007 Holly Springs, North Carolina
Paul J. Flynn, 28, Army Chief Warrant Officer, Aug 22, 2007 Whitsett, North Carolina
Lee C. Wilson, 30, Army Sergeant, Sep 06, 2007 Chapel Hill, North Carolina
Steven R. Elrod, 20, Army Specialist, Sep 10, 2007 Hope Mills, North Carolina
Laurent J. West, 32, Army Staff Sergeant, Mar 11, 2008 Raleigh, North Carolina
Juantrea T. Bradley, 28, Army Staff Sergeant, Mar 12, 2008 Greenville, North Carolina
II, Thomas C. Ray, 40, Army National Guard Sergeant, Mar 22, 2008 Weaverville, North Carolina
David B. Williams, 26, Army National Guard Sergeant, Mar 22, 2008 Tarboro, North Carolina
Emanuel Pickett, 34, Army National Guard Staff Sergeant, Apr 06, 2008 Teachey, North Carolina
Lance O. Eakes, 25, Army Specialist, Apr 18, 2008 Apex, North Carolina
Adam L. Marion, 26, Army Private 1st Class, Apr 28, 2008 Mount Airy, North Carolina
Five dead in Mecklenburg
That's five too many ... ooooh, I hope Pete Gilchrist (or some DA in NC) has the guts to ring him up.
the DOD splits up the death count
One is Operation 'Enduring Freedom' and the other is 'Operation Iraqi Freedom'.
Between the two lists, the death count in NC is 112.
Since most military men and women that move to NC military bases are requested to file taxes in a tax exempt state (like Florida), the number would actually be even higher.
Here are the two full lists in 2 Excel spreadsheets.
http://www.defendamerica.mil/fallen.html
No, he cannot
The reasons why the the President cannot be prosecuted are almost too numerous to mention.
But lets start with a war being "illegal" is a construct of international law, which governs the actions of states and not individuals. Even ignoring the fact that an unprovoked war is not unequivocally against international law (there was no treaty broken and there is not a clear consensus against preemptive strikes), it takes a jump to conclude that the should be some personal liability.
Further, there is immunity for government officials acting within their office. Since everyone agrees that the President is the commander and chief and subject to Congressional powers, can conduct military actions, Bush was at least acting within his office (even though doing so poorly). So there is no way to attack his actions in the criminal system.
Lastly, as a policy matter, the elected officials of our government should not be subjected to second guessing by local authorities. Could you imagine all of the cases that could be brought against any President. Every action of a President involves gains and losses for various groups; if any one group could institute an action based on their loss, governing would be chaos.
Just because you may not agree with an official's position is no reason to abandon our system of government. And when so clearly there is no action to be had in this case, claiming that there is does not do much for your credibility.
i agree
see my post below. Thanks for adding some meat to the argument against the prosecution proposition. I'm glad you spoke up. Someone needs to check the really outlandish things that sometimes, though not that often appear on this site. Just so the passerby doesn't think we're all out of our minds :)
What I'm arguing for is a case that takes place after
he leaves office. It is well established that a president cannot be sued or indicted while in office. Doesn't mean he can't be held accountable AFTER he leaves office, though.
Um...
Sorry, afraid you're wrong. President Clinton was only faced with legal proceedings b/c the Supreme Court held that a president can be held responsible for civil actions that took place BEFORE becoming president (since his alleged sexual harassment took place before 1993). And I think that was a horrible decision by the Court. So to argue to further erode this sovereign immunity...it just doesn't work, folks.
I'm with you, that decision was horrible
and incorrect ... the court didn't weigh Paula Jones' right to have her case heard against the people's interest in having a full-time president. What I'm advocating is that any prosecution of Bush only take place AFTER he leaves office.
Bush will skate
I front-paged this knowing full well we'd hear that it can't be done, that it would be dangerous to mom, the flag and apple pie to have an ex-president charged with crimes committed while he was presumably acting in an official capacity.
But just because something is legal, doesn't make it right. If my son or daughter had been killed in Iraq, I'd be looking for every possible action to take against George W. Bush, no matter how far-fetched.
The right thing is impeachment now. The next right thing is prosecution later. Maybe some Iraqi families will try to get him into an international court.
But the thing that will most likely happen is nothing. Boy George will skate, just like he's always done.
It's enough to make me believe in hell.
Tolerance ends
Bush will skate, just like Rove
Just like Rove.
Tolerance ends
Bush may deserve impeachment
But 1) there is no time and 2) in the middle of a campaign? Bush is one of the worst if not the worst President in our history but he will be gone in fewer than 9 months. Let's not waste our time impeaching him and spend it instead trying to elect the Democratic nominee whoever he or she is.
The tyranny of "or"
I really appreciate your thoughtful comments. Seriously. I wish you'd write more.
And of course you're right about time and practicalities. Several Congressman told me there wasn't enough time last January. If it was true then, it's even more true now. Although the irony should certainly not be lost.
Fortunately, there are lots of people who want to get practical and work within the art of what's possible ... and plenty of other who prefer flat-out ranting about the incredibly gross injustice. I like the think I straddle that fence, but probably lean toward the latter.
In any case, doesn't it take both, not either or?
Tolerance ends
I fully understand your feelings
And it does take both. Maybe I'm just "outraged out." If Bush were still in office for two more years, I'd say full speed ahead on impeachment. But its nine months.
So please keep reminding us why we should do it. I'll remind us that we can't but it isn't because we shouldn't.
Fair enough.
You have a deal.
Tolerance ends
Are you serious?
Where is the precedent for a prosecution of this kind? Without some kind of legal precedent, NO DA would touch this. It is a ridiculous proposition.* Frankly, it is a waste a time to talk about it. Let's focus on weakening McCain, strengthening Obama and helping elect NC Dems. Let's NOT look like clowns. Honestly, I'm usually a calm debater, but this thread is beyond the pale. I feel just as terribly for the families of the soldiers who died in a sadly misguided war, but pushing to prosecute Bush for murder is not the way to remedy the situation. We should fight to make sure another fool like Bush doesn't get back into the Presidency or any other office.
*Plus, interestingly (though of course all this talk is a rather meaningless exercise) if Bush was prosecuted for such crimes in North Carolina he would certainly receive the death sentence. De facto moratorium or not, being convicted of murdering dozens or hundreds of people would put Bush on death row. Would you like that? It's what happens in directorships; leader gets into stupid war, is overthrown and then executed. We don't do that here. See: Bueno de Mesquita, et al. 1999. “An Institutional Explanation of the Democratic Peace.” American Political Science Review 93(4): 791-807.
The basis for such a prosecution
would be the lies and misrepresentations that were broadcast nationally, as well as the recruitment of military personnel in each state by recruiters acting under his direction.
At present, I would think that Bush could only be charged for second-degree murder--and even then only after he leaves office. As I said earlier, there is a strong constitutional convention that a president cannot be sued or indicted while still in office. And as outrageous as this president's actions have been, it would be a stretch to suggest that he deliberately planned to kill our troops.
But look at U.S. v. Bush--it states that malice is a state of mind that causes a person to willfully commit a wrongful act that could reasonably result in death or serious injury. By this token, since Bush planned an aggressive war without regard for the loss of American lives, that is a textbook case for second-degree murder.
This is ridiculous
Bugliosi is either trying to sell his book or he's lost his mind. I agree with Proud Progressive that it is ridiculous to even raise this point. No NC DA would even THINK of doing this and if they did, I would seriously question his/her credentials to be DA.
It would be fun to watch
Tracey Cline give it a try.
Blog updated
to stress that any prosecution should wait until after Bush leaves office.
Does not matter
Legally that (whether he is in office or not) does not change the result.
My thoughts exactly
when I saw his book at Quail Ridge Books the other day. Either his publisher wants to get some publicity by having an outrageous title Or Bugliosi has lost his mind. But given at least his education, Bugliosi knows it is an utterly ridiculous proposition that serves absolutely no purpose (other than marketing).
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing
-Edmund Burke
The Tyranny of the Bush Regime
As an earlier post stated, malice is a state of mind that causes a person to willfully commit a wrongful act that could reasonably result in death or serious injury. For this reason, and others spelled out in Mr. Buglioi's book (you might consider reading it before you throw out those lost his mind remarks- the man knows what he is talking about- and does not make loose statements- he makes a clear and abundant case anyone should be able to understand), Bush can absolutely be tried for and should be found guilty of all the deaths for which he is responsible, and they do amount to murder.
What we DO NOT DO here in America is too allow persons in high office to operate outside the law- NO ONE is above the law- we certainly heard plenty of that chant from the neocons when Clinton misbehaved, didn't we, but they have their act together, immoral and corrupt as it may be.
Of COURSE, what we need to do is to bring this worm of a man to justice and thereby send a loud and convincing message to all future Presidents, that this country will NOT tolerate despotic, underhanded, dictatorial and illegal conduct from their leaders...your job in this republic is to serve and represent and protect us, NONE of which was done here. It is the ONLY way to ensure that this type of scheming, deceiptful, manipulative and outrageously UNAmerican behavior will not continue amongst those in power.