Instant runoff voting shocker-Thigpen loses 100,000 vote lead, is 6,700 behind
Incumbent Judge Cressie Thigpen had a 100,000 vote lead in the statewide IRV contest for NC Court of Appeals. He's lost that lead thanks to IRV votes and now is 6,700 votes behind. Although this was non partisan contest, voter education fell to the political parties mostly, because IRV was touted as a cost saving measure.
Correcting counting error leads to new leader in Court of Appeals race December 06, 2010
...
State elections director Gary Bartlett said Doug McCullough had a roughly 6,700-vote lead over incumbent Cressie Thigpen with counting complete in 99 of the 100 counties. The only one left – Warren County – doesn't have enough votes cast to turn the race back to Thigpen, he said.If the race stays close, Thigpen would have until Thursday to ask for a recount.
Voters initially ranked up to three candidates among 13 who ran on Election Day. Thigpen was the top recipient of first-place votes – 100,000 more than McCullough.
But McCullough caught up with second- and third-place votes.
That didn't appear to be the case at first. Johnnie McLean, the deputy director of the State Board of Elections, said there was an error in how the vote totals were tracked and written down...
DEMS did a poor job on voter ed, GOP did much better job. DEMS were told to bullet vote, to rank Thigpen 1st and 3rd, and other crazy stuff. Some voters mistakenly ranked 2 or more candidates in the first column. State funded voter ed was meager SBE flier to households. (Since IRV is easy as 1-2-3).
The winner will serve an 8 year term. The tallying method was error prone and risky. We have no way to know if vote tallies were accurate.
The North Carolina Coalition for Verified Voting has warned about problems and paradoxes of IRV for years.







Over a month after the election
for results to come in, and this is still pre-recount? They sure got the instant part or IRV wrong.
Instant Runoff Voting implies one thing, does another
The term Instant Runoff Voting is misleading. It implies that the election method is "instant" and that it provides the same results as a traditional runoff.
San Franciso, Minneapolis Minnesota and Pierce County Washington all adopted instant runoff voting but renamed it.
They now call it "Ranked Choice Voting".
So what we have here is a case of false advertising and then bait and switch.
RV is not "as easy as 1-2-3" and hurts third parties by entrenching the two-party political system wherever it has been tried. IRV does not save money, does not reduce negative campaigning, does not simplify elections, does not increase turnout and does not provide a majority outcome in most elections.
See www.instantrunoffvoting.us for more information
What do the Party Chair nominees have to say about this?
Party chair nominees:
What did you do in your community to educate about judicial races?
How did you advise on voting for the IRV race?
What methods did you employ in your local area?
What would you do for future judicial races and/or IRV races to maximize policy outcomes.
One of Uncle Festzer's top goals was to elect Barbara Jackson to the Supreme Court in 2010. What do the Dem chair nominees propose for 2012?
Truth is stranger than fiction
Ten miles away on the dark side of Hillsborough, Sheriff Jock Shaw, half-uncle of Tommy Roy Foster and president of Madmax Enterprises, has been up for hours, plotting the final stages of a corporate takeover. It’s not another shopping mall he’s after, not this time. It’s not another school board either. Been there, done that. No, this time Jock Shaw is making his biggest power play yet. He's taking control of the state supreme court. The election is Tuesday.
Do good. Be nice. Have fun.
In my county we (party
In my county we (party officials) recommended only Thigpen and advised voters to only pick him as their first choice and leave second and third choices blank. This was to maximize his vote total. I believe this was the correct course to follow but it did result in Thigpen getting all he was going to get in the original count from pretty much anyone that was inclined to vote for him. The Republicans had several recommendations and there were I think 18 on the ballot. No Republican was going to vote for him and independents didn't have a clue. It makes sense that if Thigpen didn't have a large enough margin after the first count he would get passed when the next votes were added. McCollugh picks up more votes because Republicans picked three in no particular order with him coming in second on the first count he then gets all those Republican votes that had him as their second or third pick. The Republicans overwhelmed us overall and this race goes to them as a bi-product of that. I think we did pretty much everything we could do to elect Thigpen. Is my logic faulty?
I'm a moderate Democrat.
some faults were in your posting
There were 13 on the ballot - not 18.
The state party was urged by the SEC and the State Conventions several times to study IRV and come up with some policy recommendations for handling it. I know - I wrote several resolutions to that effect. We were promised an electoral reform committee by Jerry Meek in June 2008 after two competing IRV resolutions (one for and one against) were tabled. When there was no committee, we submitted yet another resolution to the July 2009 SEC meeting and then again to the February 2010 SEC meeting and were promised a committee each time. Then two IRV resolutions got sent up through the precincts, counties, congressional districts and up to the State Convention. Only one made it - my anti-IRV resolution, but that got tabled at the Fayetteville Convention. Of course, I already knew that we'd be looking at Statewide IRV during this convention, so the cowardly action of those who tabled this resolution just sealed the fate of Judge Thigpen. Once again the State and county Parties were flying blind and had no plan for dealing with this.
Ironically, we were forced to rank the resolutions that were passed at that convention, and I asked to witness the tabulation, but of course no one received notice when the tabulation was actually done. The rankings were done, but they haven't been reported yet. So exactly how was this ranking supposed to make the resolution process more democratic and make the GA more responsive to us?
The way to have handled IRV is to have all the county parties tell voters that no matter who you voted for in first place, make sure that you cast a 2nd and 3rd count - especially if you weren't going to vote for Thigpen first.
Thigpen lost by 6700 votes statewide - or around 2.4 votes per precinct. How do we even know that the 2nd and 3rd place votes were even tabulated and counted correctly?
I've studied IRV elections around the country, and based on how they have been done elsewhere, with so many other candidates and such a large margin in the first round, Thigpen should have won. Indeed - in IRV races all around the country - 1st round winners win the Instant Runoff between 95% to 98% of the time (depending on whether it's a top-two IRV or gradual elimination IRV), only "flipping" the results in rare cases - and none with such large margins. Contrast that with traditional runoffs, where the second place finisher "flips" 33% of the time. Here in NC, 100% of the races that went to IRV "flipped" the 2nd place finisher from the first round - suggesting to me that something wasn't done right.
But how would we ever know? The IRV tabulation was pretty much done in a last-minute, jury-rigged manner that was not supposed to be transparent and observable. In Wake County, they didn't let anyone know how the votes would be counted and how many teams would be used until the day the counting was to start. They had 9 teams of counters, with tables 20 feet long put at right angles to the observers who had no seats to sit on while watching the week-long process. These positions were set up that way so that no one could watch them - because it was the observers who caught the errors in the 2007 Cary IRV count.
We have no way of knowing how badly the count went in the DRE counties - because the tabulation was done in an algorithm written by an SBOE staffer and run on MS Excel spreadsheets - in apparent violation of NC and Federal election laws. But much like the Bush administration claimed that waterboarding wasn't torture because a lawyer wrote them a note saying it wasn't torture, the SBOE found a lawyer to write them a note saying that state and federal laws don't require certified election systems.
So please don't go reading too much into the results of this election - it wasn't meant to be a transparent or verifiable election. We just need to work to strengthen the election laws so that the SBOE can't turn over the election to an algorithm written by a sick employee to be run on MS Excel in counties that may be staffed by election workers who are less than fully trained on MS Excel with computers that no one knows how well they are set up. And we need to dump IRV.
I think that is something both Dems and Republicans can agree on.
Chris Telesca
Wake County Verified Voting
http://noirvnc.blogspot.com
http://statewideirvnc.blogspot.com
Thanks for the post Mr.
Thanks for the post Mr. Telesca. I very much agree that the ball was dropped at the state level as far as informing the counties about how to proceed and explaining the process so we could then in turn explain and recommend to our voters. I think much of this could have been avoided it there had not been so many needless resolutions at the state convention. I believe everyone should have the right to express themselves through the introduction of resolutions but frankly some common sense and good judgment would certainly be well advised. Delegates at the county and district level need to stop and think these through and decide if their issue of concern truly justifies being expressed as a resolution at the state convention. When the convention is overwhelmed by resolutions those that warrant true consideration get lost in the crap.
Regarding our county strategy in voting only once since we had no 2nd or 3rd pick I wonder if it was sound, if we should have done anything differently? We did maximize his vote in our county did we not?
I'm a moderate Democrat.
The resolutions are not needless
They are a very important part of how the Democratic Party crafts our platform - the message of what we decide that WE stand for. What we want our elected officials to turn into public policy, but few of them do because their big money donors have other concerns.
The problem is not the resolutions themselves - there is just no procedure to get the resolutions acted on. And there is no penalty for legislators to ignore the will of the Party. We should really organize the resolutions according to sections of the Platform and then grade our legislators on how well or poorly they worked to turn the Platform into public policy. That would have worked when we were in the majority - and it might have helped us keep it!
Many resolutions got voted up or down while the IRV resolution got tabled this July. Then the ranking nonsense took place and no one had enough information on all the resolutions which got passed to effectively rank them. And to be honest - ranking 63 resolutions was impossible. That is why I suspect the NCDP didn't want us to see how the ranking took place - we'd soon realize that ranking resolutions was worse than not ranking them.
But it does not deal with the fact that resolutions mandating the formation of electoral reform committees passed two meetings during David Young's chairmanship, and that Jerry Meek promised us he'd form such a committee after the 2008 election. It's hard for me to be sorry that we lost this election when we had so many chances to establish a policy on IRV but failed to do so. Failure of leadership even after the majority of delegates expressed their will is a big part of our problem now. There are not too many resolutions - we just lack the will to hold our leaders accountable when they don't make good on their promises.
Franky I favor doing what they do in MN - they require that all resolutions be tied to the state party platform and titled and worded properly. Those that do not follow the rules don't make it through. That would eliminate most of the duplicate, redundant and inane resolutions right there. Then once all are organized properly, they can be presented to the Democrats in the GA and on the Council of State.
I have no idea how your county maximized votes for Thigpen in your county. I saw evidence that some counties were asking voters to rank Thigpen 1st, 2nd and 3rd, or 1st and 3rd, etc. Problem was - we weren't really asking voters all over the state to make sure to rank choices effectively. Meaning if you decided to vote for anyone other than Thigpen first - vote for Thigpen second or third. There wasn't enough time or money (due to public financing) to come up with an effective strategy in such a short time - another way that IRV failed to be more democratic.
Thigpen lost by 6655 votes - or 2.4 votes per precinct. Of course we had no way of knowing that on election day, but if we had picked up just a few more votes for this crucial race in the first column, he might still have won even after the IRV tabulation. But that is assuming the votes were counted correctly in the first and second place. Most editorial writers agree that the vote total would be different each and every time they did another count. It's hard to see a trend when the counts are different each time!
Also - because Thigpen took public money for his campaign, there was a trap to prevent him from going to court for relief. He didn't have the money to do so, and he couldn't raise any private money for legal fees.
Chris Telesca
Wake County Verified Voting
http://noirvnc.blogspot.com
http://statewideirvnc.blogspot.com
Mr. Telesca if you will read
Mr. Telesca if you will read my original post on this thread I explained what we did in my county to maximize the Thigpen vote. That is what I was asking regarding whether or not our attempt was effective or not. It made sense to me but obviously you are much more well informed about IRV. Thanks in advance for your assessment.
I'm a moderate Democrat.
You asked people to cast a first column vote for Thigpen
But with IRV, you can't just stop at the first column vote. You also have to ask anyone who didn't cast a first column vote for Thigpen to make Thigpen their second column choice.
That is how IRV is much more complicated than single-column races.
I do hope that all Democrats will stand together to work to strengthen our election laws to prevent ENRON-type election methods like IRV from being used in NC ever again. One way to do that would be to prevent the IRV pilot program from being extended beyond 2011. And repeal judicial IRV elections by making them unnecessary. With the Thigpen election, we could change the NC Constitution so that Thigpen could sit as a judge and then file and run normally in 2012.
To make sure that all elections are transparent and verifiable, we need to change the law to make sure that the SBOE and county election directors can't just write up some algorithm on their own and find a state lawyer who says it's legal - that's the equivalent of the Bush DOJ's "waterboarding" memo. We must insist on mandatory testing and certification of election systems, and specific requirements for observable and transparent hand-counting procedures that don't vary from county to county.
I think we can get the Republicans to go along with this.
Chris Telesca
Wake County Verified Voting
http://noirvnc.blogspot.com
http://statewideirvnc.blogspot.com