An open letter to Larry Kissell
IF YOU ARE A NORTH CAROLINIAN WHO VOTED FOR OR SUPPORTED LARRY KISSELL FOR CONGRESS, PLEASE ADD YOUR COMMENTS TO THIS THREAD. AND THEN CALL LARRY.
Dear Larry.
I remember our first conversation like it was yesterday. You called me to ask for advice about your campaign, and also to ask for money. I gave you both. I told you to dump the ridiculous orange t-shirt you were wearing and put on a tie. I asked you to always tell the truth.
My wife and I maxed out in contributions to your campaign. I opened my house to you for a major fundraiser. I got one of my best friends to do the same. My friends and I collectively raised tens of thousands of dollars, all based what you told us.
You stood on the back deck at my house when you promised to be a thoughtful representative in Congress. You promised you would put the people of North Carolina first in everything you did. You told me you would fight for what is right and fair for regular people, people who weren't getting a fair shake, people who were suffering because of the aftershocks of years of government by special interests.
You called me three times to thank me for my help. You said you couldn't have done it without me. You told me I could count on you to keep your word.
But you're not doing that. You're not thinking through the facts of healthcare reform, like you said you would. You're relying on lies from special interests. You're pretending like the current healthcare system is a sustainable proposition, when you know it is not.
You see citizens in your district being dumped by insurance companies every day and you're not stepping up to do something about it. You see people going bankrupt because of the lack of health reform every day and you're ignoring them. You're also ignoring your own CBO estimates that show how healthcare reform actually saves money in the long run.
I've listened to all your explanations, Larry, and they don't hold water. They make about as much sense as that orange t-shirt you had plastered all over your first website. They are boneheaded and they are wrong.
You took my advice once, Larry Kissell. Now I'm asking you to take it one more time. I'm asking you to keep your word. Not just to me, but to the thousands of people who believed what you said.
James Protzman
- James's blog
- 4147 reads











Please spread the word
Larry Kissell has never taken a phone call from me. All he's done is take my checks and my hospitality - and take the people of North Carolina for granted.
If you will, please contact him one more time.
(202) 225-3715
https://forms.house.gov/kissell/contact-form.shtml
Well put.
Well put.
"Man is free at the moment he wishes to be." -Voltaire
I was able to leave a message on a machine.....
Kissell has been a real disappointment. But he still has one chance to redeem himself in my eyes.
Besta é tu se você não viver nesse mundo
http://zabouti.tumblr.com
Ditto
Ditto. Ditto.
Voting NO
He has already said he is voting "NO"....again.
Lovex7
very disappointed
I was a sponsor for one of his early fundraisers here in Charlotte and have been very disappointed in his performance in DC. Plus he still owes the Meck Dem Party $900 for using our headquarters during the '08 election.
me three (more like three thousand)
I'm disappointed too. I contributed to Kissell in 2006 AND in 2008. I encouraged friends to donate too, and to go down and work in the 8th Congressional District.
Larry:
You can't control whether you get more than one term in office. But you CAN determine your legacy as a Congressperson. There is no more important vote than this one. Do the right thing, Larry.
Feel like you're spinning your wheels?
Get some Traction... turning energy into progressive movement
Larry, this bill will let people like me get insured
I spent a lot of time in 2006 and 2008 volunteering for you. I dropped everything on election day 2006 and spent the whole day making calls for you and organizing other students to do the same. I also contributed to your campaign despite not having much money to give. I, and others like me, hoped you would use your position to fight for the little guy, not screw them over like your predecessor did.
I've held out hope through now despite your record of conservative votes because plausibly, you could have known that your vote wasn't needed to pass the bills. It's needed now, and we need this bill. Please vote for it.
I called this morning, and the intern who answered my call gave the "Medicare cut" excuse. I asked how he could justify that when there are people like John Conyers in Congress now who have been sticking up for Medicare since Larry was a kid, and they (and basically everyone else) see nothing wrong with it. She said that the aide who was able to respond to that was out of the office; I intend to call back later.
Piling on Larry?
Either way! It is hard to fiqure out what Larry is doing? If Larry was really smart! All he can say or do is that he is for a Public Option, thus stopping his base of Progressives from not supporting him and busting their butts for him. With no base, he is toast no matter what Poll or what those stupid DC Democrat congressional establishment type consultants are telling him or promising......
Reminds me of BJ Lawson and the Ron Paul tea baggers, They claim to have national or a local Poll showing them sweeping to victory in November in the most heavy control democrat district in the state.....It's not going to happen period!
Well, what can I say
that hasn't already been said. But I will try.
I generally tend to work/give in my district in Congressional races. But the excitement generated here at BlueNC pushed me to donate money to Larry and get other people to donate money.
Did I max out like James? No. But I gave. In both cycles. I convinced a person that had actually worked for Larry's opponent to donate and vote for Larry in the last cycle.
But this is it for me. If health insurance reform does not pass, all Democrats lose. When the DSCC and the DCCC and the DNC send me letters, they go in the trash. When I hear the name Larry Kissell I say vote against him.
Some here may call me cynical or worse, but I will do my part destroy the Democratic village in order to save it. If we cannot get this very centrist bill through with our majority, then what good are we anyway.
So, Mr. Kissell, you can be the guy that inspires people like me for the party or the guy that inspires people like me to say, to quote Eric Cartman, "screw you guys, I'm going home."
Larry - Are you still a Democrat?
You need to stand with the President and vote for the health care bill.
I attended a fundraiser at James' house for you.
I attended one at Eugene Brown's house in Durham for you.
I dragged my whole family to your BBQ fundraiser at the State Fairgrounds.
I sent contributions in the mail and blogged for you all over the internets.
I contributed more money to your campaign than to any other candidate, ever.
You need to stand up, be a proud Democrat, and vote for this bill.
Otherwise, you might as well be John Edwards - nothing but a huge disappointment.
I know real people
who are more likely to die if health care reform does not pass now.
I have a good friend with a form of leukemia that has recently gone into remission thanks to very expensive medication which she and her husband were able to pay for in large part through help from their health insurance. Now he's been laid off, and their COBRA coverage is ticking down. With a "pre-existing condition" like hers, no private insurer under current rules will cover her, and they are not eligible for Medicare or Medicaid. Coverage under the existing NC high-risk program will only bankrupt them somewhat more slowly.
Rep. Kissell, would you like to explain to them why you're going to leave them out in the cold, over political cold feet? I can arrange a meeting.
Dan Besse
Mr. Kissell, please, please, please
consider your actions and vote FOR health care reform. I sent you contributions, I wrote about you....you were different then. You were very vocal, you said all the right things, people believed in you, please be THAT Larry again.
Betsy, what is your take on Kissell?
Have you been able to speak with him lately?
Rep. Kissell
Who can we trust if we can't trust you? You are one of us. Democrats who would put our own political careers second to this historic moment. Stand tall and have courage.
Progressive Democrats of North Carolina
Do the right thing.
Larry,
Do the right thing and vote YES! for the Health Care bill.
Received this "Invitation" from the Kissell camp
this morning....
I wonder who the "some folks" are....
I received it too
Meet you there---NOT!!
Lovex7
ME too.
Hey maybe we should show up there. He couldn't ignore us then.
Progressive Democrats of North Carolina
HUGE DISAPPOINTMENT
Larry, you either don't understand or you don't care. You snowed me like a teenager at a Beatles concert (I'm old). I gave to your campaign. Not a lot, but a lot for me since I have to give to others too. I went to three fundraisers for you...two of them in Raleigh and I live in Fayetteville. We had a fundraiser for another candidate at my family home and you showed up. You collected money there too. I didn't resent it..I was happy for you. I resent it now.
I know three congressmen who stuck their necks out for you. They went to fundraisers for you and pleaded with the DCCC to help you. Most of us on BlueNC know who they are.
Imagine how stunned and disappointed they are. BTW, they have given up on you. You are dead to them. I have called your office and sent you e-mails about bills in the last year and I usually hear from you a week after your vote. You really don't care what I think.
Last month the Cumberland County Dems had a caucus to replace Margaret Dickson and Breeden Blackwell. The room was full. If you could have heard the conversations about you, you would have been shocked. Not one person in that room said they would vote for you again or give you money. Are you listening??? I hope you don't need Cumberland County. Do you really think that Republicans will vote for you because you are voting with the Republicans? Think again.
Lovex7
I really miss the original Larry
he would answer letters, emails and phone calls. He stood up for "We the People" and told us he would support us all. I don't understand what happened to him, and would love to hear from him....
Larry the Letdown
Like others here I gave more than once help Larry run, to cover his debts, and then to run again. I used my precinct email list to encourage others to do the same.
If Mr. Kissell votes against HCR, he's going to have a very lonely campaign this year.
For Veterans
Lack of health care or access to adequate health care killed 2,266 veterans in 2008. That's higher than the death toll in Afghanistan that year. The uninsured have a 40% higher risk of dying each year than insured individuals. Everyone who serves is not eligible for VA care. According to census data that's about 1.5 million people. That someone who is willing to risk their life for the rest of us should suffer for one day without access to adequate health care should be a great source of shame for this country. A shame that is shared by Mr. Kissell.
If I could have convinced more slaves that they were slaves, I could have freed thousands more.
Harriet Tubman (1822 – 1913)
202-225-3715
That's Rep. Kissell's Washington office number. If you haven't called yet this week, please do.
The explanatory response which his staff has been instructed to provide makes no rational sense. It's political cover. So, if political arguments are prevailing in that office, then it's incumbent upon us to be sure that they are aware of the adverse consequences of maintaining that decision.
Help let Rep. Kissell know that his former support base in North Carolina is outraged over this matter. The consequences of a deflated Democratic base in the 8th district could be severe in this contest and other races in the same geographic territory this fall.
Fortunately, Rep. Kissell can still pull that plane out of its nosedive: Vote for the health care reform bill this time.
202-225-3715.
Dan Besse
Suggestion on Kissell
If there is someone posting here on BlueNC that is in the 8th District, maybe it would do some good for that person to go to Kissell's Contact Site and put in the URL for BlueNC for him to access so he can see what his dedicated democrats are saying here. You would think he or one of his staff members would be peeping in on us here, but maybe not.
He is losing a lot of people that have been and still want to be supporters of his. This is not just an issue where he can stick his head in the sand. You know it isn't just the few people posting here that are upset with his supposed stance on HCR.
I suggest someone from the 8th because of the way the "contact form" is made up. A lot of times, they do not even bother with what people say if they are not in their district, believe it or not.
___________________________________________________
“Discussion is an exchange of knowledge; argument is an exchange of ignorance" __ Robert Quillen
It IS worth calling Kissell 202-225-3715 to vote FOR Healthcare
My husband, Dan Besse, is at the National League of Cities conference in Washington, D.C. Based on what he's seeing there, if you live anywhere in Kissell's district, it's worth your time and effort to call Kissell and register your continued concern that he vote to pass the health care bill.
I know that the current popular wisdom is that he is unshakably against it, but it doesn't look like that from DC. Dan is up there and the "feel" seems to be that it's worth putting on the pressure.
Contributing to that, the President of the Service Employees International (SCI) Union, was interviewed on MSNBC this afternoon. I'm no longer the political junkie I used to be, so I had to ask. Dan explained: SCI is one of the biggest, fastest growing and most politically agressive unions in the country.
When asked about another member of congress, the SCI President injected Kissell's name SPONTANEOUSLY as a targeted House Democrat to switch his vote to yes on health care.
SCI wouldn't be putting their effort into Kissell at this late date if they didn't think that the furor was having an effect on his vote. We KNOW it has had an effect on his behavior. He wasn't at the state convention and I'll bet many of you can name other places he'd usually have been and wasn't.
Maybe he just doesn't want to hear about it, but maybe he's realizing that he doesn't want to come home and tell his district that he voted against it.
Keep those calls going in. Don't forget that snail mail letters take to long to be screened. Much better to waste a call than to have failed to make the call that would have turned him around, even if only by altering percentages to an unacceptably high level. Call 202-225-3715 or use that button up in the right corner marked "Tell Kissell to keep his word" and, er um, well tell Kissell.
(Good job NC Blue.)
Even Dennis Kucinich is voting "aye"
Get on board Larry, last call!
Progressive Democrats of North Carolina
Busy, Busy, Busy
I have tried all morning to call Larry's office, but the line is busy. I swore I wasn't going to call him, because I have tried to sway him before and he has never done a thing I asked. He didn't mind calling me a few months ago to ask if I was going to support him in this election. Actually, it was a message on my voice mail that asked me to call back to let him know. I have responded to him the same way he responded to me. I'll bet he will never again show up at a fundraiser that I am having for someone else.
Lovex7
Got Through
A friend and I just kept hitting the redial button until we got through.
They didn't ask who I was...just where I lived.
Call. It might not help, but it certainly won't hurt.
Lovex7
James, you asked Larry Kissell to "always tell the truth."
Did you mean except w/r/t his oath of office?
There are a few things you should know about the "reconciliation" and Slaughter "deem it passed" processes that the Democrats are planning to use, to get around the fact that they don't have the votes to pass a healthcare bill the normal way.
First, the Slaughter "deem it passed" procedure would be the first time in American history in which a bill was deemed to be enacted without being passed in identical form by both the House and Senate.
It is blatantly extralegal and plainly unconstitutional, being contrary to Article 1, Sec. 7 of the U.S. Constitution, which requires that "every bill" which becomes law "shall have passed the House of Representatives and the Senate" before it goes to the President to be signed or vetoed.
Second, "reconciliation" isn't what you probably think it is.
You might be a bit perplexed by all this "reconciliation" talk. Maybe you thought you were pretty well informed about the federal lawmaking process, but now you've been hearing that reconciled health bills can't be filibustered, which surprises you. In fact, you might even recall some examples where House and Senate versions of a bill were reconciled in conference committee, but the compromise bills were then filibustered in the Senate.
So, what's going on?
A scam, that's what. The "reconciliation" they're talking about is not reconciling two versions of the bill. Rather, it is actually budget reconciliation, which is something entirely different.
The reason they say "reconciliation" rather than "budget reconciliation" is to obfuscate what they are doing, and how dishonest it is.
Budget reconciliation is a process for passing a new law (called a budget reconciliation bill) which amends an already-passed-and-signed-into-law budget law, to bring it into conformance with a previously-passed budget resolution.
Budget reconciliation is used to reduce budget deficits. Budget Reconciliation is designed to give some baby teeth to budget resolutions, when subsequently-passed budget bills contains a higher spending than the budget resolution called for.
They're not reconciling HR 3200 with HR 3590. Rather, they are discarding HR 3200 entirely, pretending ("deeming") that HR 3590 passed, and then amending HR 3590 through the Budget Reconciliation process.
However:
1) It's not a budget bill!
2) The bill being amended hasn't passed, and isn't law!
3) Enacting the reconciliation bill won't bring anything into conformance with a budget resolution!
4) It won't reduce the deficit, it will increase it!
The Democrats' spin is that Republicans have used this process in the past, so they have no right to complain when Democrats use it. The truth is that both Republicans and Democrats have used Budget Reconciliation to bring already passed budgets into conformance with previously passed budget resolutions, only. Nobody has ever suggested using it to enact massive new government programs, until now.
Congress now has two healthcare bills:
* HR 3200 (which does not fund abortions) was passed by the House.
* HR 3590 (which does fund abortions) was passed by the Senate. It was done as a Senate amendment which entirely replaced the text of an unrelated minor House bill, which is how the Senate bill got an "HR" bill number. They had to do it this way to skirt the Constitution, because the bill raises taxes, and Article 1, Sec. 7 says, "All bills for raising revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives."
Legally, there are three things they can do to get a bill passed:
1. The Senate can simply pass HR 3200, unaltered. (But they don't have the votes.)
2. The House can pass HR 3590, unaltered. (But they don't have the votes.)
3. The two bills (HR3200 & HR3590) could be reconciled in a conference committee, which tries to pick and choose between the provisions of the two bills, and produce a compromise which will be acceptable to both houses. Then the compromise bill should be sent to both houses for debate and votes -- and in the Senate, a possible filibuster.
That's how the legislative process works -- or how it always has, until now.
But the Democrats don't think they can actually come up with a compromise bill that will pass in both the House and Senate. So they're not even trying. In fact, they didn't even appoint a conference committee.
Instead, they plan to discard HR 3200, and "deem" HR 3590 to have passed the House, without the House members actually voting on it.
I'm not kidding.
The "deeming" will be a line in the budget reconciliation bill (which isn't actually a budget reconciliation bill at all). Obama will sign HR 3590 into law as soon as the House passes the reconciliation bill with the "deeming" line in it, pretending that the House's passing of the reconciliation bill with the deeming line is equivalent to them passing the original HR 3590 (which it obviously isn't). Then the reconciliation bill goes to the Senate, for debate and amendment and possible defeat. When the Senate parliamentarian rules that what the Democrats are trying to do out of order, they promise to bring in Biden (as President of the Senate) to lie & overrule the parliamentarian.
When the dust settles, they will have HR 3590 (the version that funds abortions) signed into law (regardless of whether the reconciliation bill ever passes), and yet the House will never have actually voted for it!
This is absolutely unprecedented, and the most blatantly crooked spectacle that I've ever seen in Congress.
Digression: The Democrats lack the 60 votes to pass it in the Senate because the newest Senator, Scott Brown, R-MA, is pledged to vote "no." [That pledge was a cornerstone of his improbable campaign to win the safest of safe Democratic seats.] If the Democrats had started with only 59 seats, they could have persuaded any of several liberal Republicans to join them. But since they didn't think they needed any Republican votes, they didn't bother with bipartisanship, or even basic courtesy. Now, thanks to the Massachusetts voters, they suddenly need one Republican vote, but it's too late: their bare-knuckles partisanship [and the voters' wrath] has burned that bridge: not even Olympia Snow will join them, now.
If the the Obama/Pelosi/Reed cabal actually succeed in this scheme, the lawsuits will immediately start, along with open revolt by some of the States, 37 of which are currently considering defiant State laws designed to thwart the federal takeover of healthcare, and one of which has already passed such a law.
James, if you really want Larry to never lie, you need to tell him to vote "NO" on this outrageous and unconstitutional power grab by the Democratic leadership.
Dave
Lie
I stopped reading at where it says "HR 3590 (which does fund abortions) was passed by the Senate." because it is simply a lie and it would violate the Hyde ammendment. So the rest must simply be crap like a lot of what precedes it. You thinks the bill is un-constitutional? File a lawsuit and we will see you in court. As Daniel Patrick Moynihan said "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts."
wrong
The U.S. Catholic Bishops are generally liberal, and sympathetic to socialized medicine, but they are pro-life, and they can read. They've repeatedly debunked the Obama lie that HR 3590 would not fund elective abortions.
The truth is that if the Senate bill didn't actually fund abortions then it wouldn't matter whether it has a Stupak-Pitts amendment to prohibit funding elective abortions. Obviously. But the abortion industry worked hard to prevent the Stupak-Pitts language from being included in the Senate bill, because without it the bill does fund elective abortions.
That's why the otherwise-liberal Catholic Bishops oppose the Senate bill, HR 3590. Here's their rebuttal to the lies being spread by some of the bill's supporters.
A week earlier they released this Fact Sheet.
And here you can read where the Catholic Church stands on the Senate health bill
Dave
Oh, really
The bishops start right off in the second or third paragraph suggesting that supporters of the bill simply do what can't be done, and everything will be fine. The language they're asking for doesn't qualify for reconciliation.
Then they rely on theoretical and hypothetical arguments. Community Health Centers do not provide abortion services, but maybe they will decide to start doing that sometime in the future? And maybe they can somehow get around the Hyde amendment and use federal funds for that? Right, and maybe the sky will fall, but I'm not making plans for that eventuality.
Good presentation, Dave
I would think that if what is being presented by the Catholics is actually correct, then there would most certainly be a challenge to that specific part of the Senate bill in the courts. I am not prepared to argue this, to be honest. You have brought up very interesting presentations through the hyperlinks you have provided.
This is getting very interesting. Of course, I have no problem with taxpayer money providing people with making a choice on abortions since that procedure is legal even though I see the points being made via your links provided, but that is just me. In any case, you do make a very convincing argument here regardless of my disagreement on the issue.
___________________________________________________
“Discussion is an exchange of knowledge; argument is an exchange of ignorance" __ Robert Quillen
Sorry, but I am not wrong
You are basing your whole argument on what the U.S. Catholic Bishops have to say? They are liberal? You are laughable and the Bishops are so wrong on this that the Nuns and the National Catholic Reporter, the largest Catholic publication in the U.S. have come out in support of the Health Care Reform bill and against the Bishops. What are you going to tell us next, the nuns are Pro-Choice now? The National Catholic Reporter Pro-Choice now? Stop being a jester and stop peddling lies. The Bishops are also entitled to their own opinions but not their own facts, and I will add regardless of what they might belive, they and the Pope are as falible as you and I. You are free to practice your religion as you wish, but don't even dare trying imposing it on me which is exactly what you are trying to do.
I admire your indignation
but in talking to Dave you are talking to a true believer in every sense of the word. He is right, divinely right, about every single thing he thinks, well on his way to being born again as Tim D'Annunzio.
I guess so,
but no indignation on my part. He can expect a lot of pushback in his attemtpt to establish a theocracy and reminded that lying is also a sin if he believes in sins.
By the Way
Here are the links to what the National Catholic Reporter and to the statement by the largest association representing Catholic nuns in the U.S. have to say Catholic Sisters Support Passage of Healthcare Bill.
One more thing
It is clear by your nickname that you are a staunch anti-abortionist. That is fine, don't have an abortion, but keep your morality to yourself and don't try to impose it on me. It's funny how some people are staunchly pro-life from conception to birth and then after birth tell people you are on your own.
This is the biggest misconception basquebob
The majority on the left are pro-Choice. They are not saying they are pro-Abortion. They are pro-CHOICE! This, to me and I honestly believe to most on the left, means that no one has a problem with being against abortion as a personal CHOICE. If someone is anti-abortion, then (as you say) "don't have an abortion". But, abortion is a legal procedure in the U.S. Has been for decades. People that do choose that option have a myriad reasons for doing so. Truth be known, many that fight so fervently against it would choose it themselves depending on circumstance. I am pro-Choice. But, for me, if my daughter were to get pregnant (for example) and wanted to abort her child because that pregnancy might hamper her love of dancing for 9 months or might keep her from smoking or something of that nature, I would try my best to talk her out of it. However, if the fetus was determined to be affected by some kind of abnormality that would see it as having a very poor quality of life, I would encourage her to abort and try again. In any case, it would be a CHOICE. It would not make me, in my mind, a monster if I suggested the abortion and it does not make me a rabid pro-lifer if I suggested having the baby. It would just be a CHOICE.
Why is that so difficult for the radical christian right in this country to understand?
___________________________________________________
“Discussion is an exchange of knowledge; argument is an exchange of ignorance" __ Robert Quillen
Not a misconception on my part
Nor did I say pro abortion. In fact I never met anyone that had an abortion that liked having it but would have it again under similar circumstances. I am Pro-Choice and will fight for that right and against anyone trying to take that right away. I will also point out the hipocrisy of many of the "anti-abortionists".
Me too
Exactly.
___________________________________________________
“Discussion is an exchange of knowledge; argument is an exchange of ignorance" __ Robert Quillen
life
basquebob wrote, "don't have an abortion, but keep your morality to yourself and don't try to impose it on me."
Bob, are you opposed to spousal abuse? What if I thought it was my right to beat my wife, and none of your business? If you told me that you opposed wife-beating, suppose I replied, "fine, don't beat your wife, but keep your morality to yourself and don't try to impose it on me." Would you buy that argument?
I asked James a question about this a while back, but he wouldn't answer. Nobody here would. I showed him two pictures of young Samuel Armas, taken 10 years apart, and asked why it would be a tragedy to harm him at the older age, and not at the younger. I'd like to ask you the same question. I'd post it for you, here, but James says he will ban me from bluenc if I post it again. So please view it in the older topic, here, if you are interested:
http://www.bluenc.com/boycott-apex
Dave
And you never answered my question
about why the death penalty (or life in prison) should not be imposed for women who have abortions. According to your rules they are committing murder. Why the double standard?
You've apparently forgotten my answer, James.
I answered your question, James -- twice, in fact.
You wanted to know why women who have abortions should be treated differently than other people who commit other homicides.
I answered here:
http://charles-taylor.bluenc.com/apex-takes-cue-stupak#comment-126821
I said:
You asked again, so I answered again, here:
http://charles-taylor.bluenc.com/apex-takes-cue-stupak#comment-126838
I said:
But you never did answer my question.
Neither did anyone else.
Uh oh, photo link is dead
Unfortunately, it appears that the famouspictures.org link has gone dead. However, there's a similar one in this thread:
http://www.bluenc.com/boycott-apex
Specifically, here:
http://www.bluenc.com/boycott-apex#comment-126916
God, I hate this
You know, there may be people here on BlueNC that do not want to see that anymore. There may be people here on BlueNC that have seen it just one too many times. It no longer serves any purpose other than to re-ignite passions here and those passions, Dave, are not the ones you have.
I have one thing to say to you: IF YOU ARE AGAINST ABORTION, DON'T HAVE ONE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Geeezzzz...
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“Discussion is an exchange of knowledge; argument is an exchange of ignorance" __ Robert Quillen
That's good.
Foxtrot wrote, "God, I hate this."
That's good. You should be uncomfortable, Foxtrot. Perhaps your conscience is stirring.
If you could look at those two pictures of little Samuel without being uncomfortable, given your position, it would mean there was something seriously wrong with you.
In one picture his left hand is grasping a surgeon's fingertip, and in the other, 10 years later, at age 9.5, his same left hand is grasping an oar, with exactly the same thumb-over-the-end grip. How can you be comfortable with allowing him to come to harm at the former age if your heart would boil with righteous outrage over a harm to him at the later age?
It sounds to me like you are not completely comfortable with it, after all. Bravo!
I will answer your question with a question
how much did it cost to save that childs life and how many more died because of it? Why some kids lifes are more valuable than others? It's a tough question but a valid one. It happens everyday. So who's life is more valuable? The one of those that can afford better or more insurance or that can live in richer communities? Where do we put the better hospitals and closer to whom? Or could we put more hospitals if we did not spend so much on certain kind of resources at some hospitals and more people would survive? What do you have to say to the families of those 47,000 Americans that die every year because they did not have access to proper medical care because they lacked the economic resources? What makes you think that your moral standards are higher or better than mine? I am glad for the kid in the picture but you are only offering red herrings.
since you asked
I would tell your wife to call the police, file charges against you, divorce the bastard and ask that he be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
You see, I don't have the moral dilemma that you have because I don't share your concepts or "moral values" on abortion. I have told you that I respect your freedom to practice your beliefs as long as you don't impose those on me. There are no laws or proposed laws that will force you to have an abortion, but apparently you want to take the ability to have the choice of having an abortion if others want to. I am not trying to impose anything on you but you are trying to impose a moral code on me that I simply do not share with you. You are abusing my rights just as you would abuse your wife in the false parallel that you present. Last time I checked we are not a theocracy yet.
think about it
If you accept your own argument, as applied to spousal abuse, then it would do my wife no good to call the police or file charges, since by beating her I would have committed no crime.
Or do you wish to impose your belief against spousal abuse on me, by having laws against it?
If so, then why shouldn't I be permitted to impose my belief against unborn baby abuse on you, by having laws against it?
(BTW, just for the record, I would never, ever strike my wife. This is a hypothetical point raised for the purpose of disposing of the tired old "if you don't believe in abortion then don't have one" argument.)
Sorry, you missed the whole point of what I was saying
I am not even trying to make a moral argument. I have stated clearly that I belive you and everybody else is entitled to their moral code but we have a criminal and legal code under we which we operate. That system punishes spousal abuse. I am describing simply what a battered wife should do under our current legal system. That is what I would advise her to do, capice. On the other hand, in our current system abortions are also legal. You can not call the police and denounce, say my wife, if she would decide to have a perfectly legal abortion.
The essence of my point is that I am not interested in you or anyone else interjecting or thrusting their morality on me. I am fine with the one I got.
I wasn't making any moral arguments on that one. What I will do is call b.s. on others when they try, and in the case of Dave if he is going to use what Bishops have to say about morality I suggest the Bishops first get their "moral house" in order.
elective abortion, like elective wife-beating, SHOULD be illegal
The essence of my point is that "if you don't believe in abortions then don't have one" is a specious defense of elective abortion, no more valid than "if you don't believe in wife-beating then don't beat your wife" as a defense of elective spousal abuse. Both are evil acts, and the law should reflect that fact.
One good measure of the level of a civilization is how it treats its weakest members: its babies, its children, its elderly, its widows. We should aspire to be a civilized society, which defends the defenseless, and protects the weak. A baby is more defenseless than an abused wife, but you are fine with the fact that (since the SCOTUS usurped them) our laws protect the wife but not the baby. I am not.
You have no problem thrusting your morality on me, so how do you come off demanding that only YOUR morality be codified as law?
It is at least as evil to abuse a child as to abuse a wife, and even more evil to kill her. Our laws should reflect that fact.
Dave
Wife?
Maybe you could explain why your Facebook profile says you are single.
nosy, aren't we? :-)
Because I don't have a wife yet.
Like I said, this argument about wife-beating and abortion is hypothetical.
nosey?
you are here preaching morality and lying in the process, how ironic.
I did not lie.
I do not lie, and you do not read carefully.
I wrote the truth: the wife-beating scenario is hypothetical, and I will never beat my wife. I'm speaking of the future, and the statement is true. Regardless of when I get married, I will never, ever strike my wife.
Look,
I respect your right to belive what you want. I don't respect your believe that you can impose your beliefs on me. You insist and yet you want to talk to me about being civilized or what constitutes being civilized. I think you are quite uncivilzed just for believing that you truly think your set of values or morals are superior than mine or that of others. I don't believe that an unviable fetus is the same than a baby.
You talk about morality and civilization as if you know or own the absolute truth. Who made you God? Who told you that the God or Gods you worship are the true Gods?
I have not thrusted my morality on you. I don't know who you are nor do I really care. No one is forcing you to have an abortion. No one is asking you not to practice your religion. Yet, you sure want to impede others and use spurious arguments in the process. You are obviously fine with comparing your wife with an unviable fetus. Well I am not. Not for a second. And if life is life, where do we stop and why? Are you a vegetarian? Do you eat things that were once alive? Were do you stop? Which life is more valuable? And why should I stop where you want to stop? Who made you omnipotent to make these decisions?
Who is trying to thrust what on whom? You say "One good measure of the level of a civilization", and I ask, according to whom? There are many advanced, and I would say good, civilizations that have no problem with abortions. To me a baby and a fetus are two different things. That's why we us different terms to describe different things. You would never call a born child a fetus, would you?
Like Samuel?
Basquebob wrote, "I don't believe that an unviable fetus is the same than a baby."
Samuel was an unviable unborn baby in those pictures, Bob. He was too young to survive long outside the womb (with current technology). He was still much too young to grasp and yank an oar, but he was not too young to grasp and yank a surgeon's fingertip with his tiny left fist.
Unviable doesn't mean unhuman, or unalive, or unvaluable. It just means younger and weaker and more defenseless.
Dave
I already answered
that question here But you haven't answered mine yet. How many others have to die to save kids like Samuel? How moral is that? Who's live is more valuable, that of a 12 year old boy with a tooth abcess or that of an otherwise unviable baby that we will have to spend hundreds of thaousands if not millions of dollars to keep alive? How many more kids like the 12 year old boy could be saved with those resources? Answer that. Explain the morality of your choice. Those are real every day cases right here in the U.S.A. Like I said, I am glad for Samuel but don't believe for a second that that didn't happen at some else's life expense.
Nobody.
That was no answer, that was another question, based on a fallacy, Bob.
In answer to your next question, nobody had to die to save Samuel Armas. That's a false choice, based on the fallacy that if we spend more resources caring for one person then we must necessarily sacrifice the care of another. It is the kind of chilling logic used to justify Death Panels and cost-effectiveness tests and age discrimination and other forms of healthcare rationing, which Americans will suffer if the Democrats get their way.
The truth is that there is nothing wrong with spending more to get better healthcare, if we need it more than we need other things, like HDTV and fancier houses. In a free society, the citizens are free to sacrifice their vacations and toys and entertainment to devote more of their resources to caring for their sick children. While it is true that resources are limited, the cost of caring for sick babies like Samuel needn't come at the expense of someone else's medical care; it can just as well come at the expense of recreation and lawn care.
Your response is also ironic: you have a lot of nerve pretending to care about kids' healthcare when YOU are advocating passage of the Democrats' health care rationing bill, which will cost many thousands of those kids their lives, for the stated goal of saving money. It will also eventually cost many non-Americans their lives, as federally-imposed cost-cutting slows the American medical advances which save lives everywhere.
If this monstrosity passes, and if it isn't thrown out by the courts as it should be, then the federal government will be imposing treatment standards and telling doctors what they may and may not do for their patients, and what they can charge; and labs and hospitals what equipment they can buy and who they can use it on -- all for the purpose of rationing care and saving money.
I spent several hours today with an expatriate Canadian, now living in Tennessee. (I was helping his daughter move, here in NC.) He told me a seemingly endless series of horror stories about Canadian medicine, and the appalling waits that Canadians endure, and (especially for those over age 75) the sorry standard of care. Example: a 10 months wait for a sleep apnea test, when you wouldn't have to wait 10 days in the USA. He also told me that both of his Canadian parents would have lived longer if they'd been in the USA.
He told me that it took quite a while for Canadian medicine to decline to its current level. They've had socialized medicine since the 1960s, he said, and in the 1970s the quality of care was excellent. But it has been getting worse and worse ever since. Today if a Canadian needs an expensive treatment or diagnostic procedure, such as an MRI or sleep apnea test, or even heart surgery, he's likely to wait for many months -- if he doesn't die in the meantime. And for those over age 75, the care is even worse.
That's the road you would have us travel. Maybe you're too old to worry about the state of American medical care in 30-40 years. But what about your children, and grandchildren? Don't you care about them?
Another falsehood
Samuel Armas was not "saved" by the surgery. The fetus was put at risk by the elective surgery which was designed to reduce the number of post-natal surgeries required to control spina bifida.
Wrong.
1. I never said that Samuel was "saved" by the surgery. It was Bob who first used that phrase here. He used it in a question to me, which I answered.
(Are you going to call Bob a liar, now? No, I didn't think so. That would be unacceptable. Name-calling is only acceptable if the target is a conservative or Christian.)
2. Samuel's life wasn't saved by the surgery, but his brain was. The surgery was done to prevent progressive and irreversible brain damage, caused by pressure on the brain during his development, consequent to spina bifida. As I recall, his mom said something to the effect that she could live with the possibility that he might not walk (thankfully, that didn't happen), but she could not live with the threat that he wouldn't even know who she was (if the surgery wasn't done).
Of course it was risky. All surgery is risky. But wouldn't you accept that risk for yourself, to prevent severe, irreversible brain damage?
And all that is beside the point, which is that he was alive, and human, and precious, and capable of grasping a surgeon's fingertip at that "unviable" age, and nobody who favors legalized elective abortion has been able to explain to me me why they consider his life precious at age 9-1/2 but undeserving of legal protection at the age of his surgery.
Remember, Samuel was one of the "hard cases," who nearly everyone on the so-called "pro-choice" side thinks should be aborted.
How times have changed. I remember "bleeding-heart liberals," so-called because of their soft, if sometimes impractical, hearts. Where are they now? I miss them! Now the mark of a liberal is his utter indifference to the killing of unborn babies, and his cold, dollar-based calculus of the cost vs. value of anyone else. "Why, that baby would cost tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars to heal! Better to let it die, and decrease the surplus population," says the modern liberal.
The modern liberal's heart is so cold and hard that he probably can't even comprehend real, loving, sacrificial compassion.
Dave
It is all in what you WANT to believe
Read THIS ARTICLE, Dave...specifically this:
Thanks.
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“Discussion is an exchange of knowledge; argument is an exchange of ignorance" __ Robert Quillen
Which part of
I will answer your question with a question did you not understand? And you still have not answered any question. Particularly the one about the cost of saving someone's life at the expense of many others. I know why? You are incapable of dealing with the moral dilema that I present to you. Your answer "nobody had to die to save Samuel Armas" is not an answer to my question it is a wish we all have. The fact is 47,000 Americans die every year because we spend to much on cases like Samuel Armas. That is not a fallacy that is a well documented fact.
In answer to some of your other questions: The fact is that insurance companies are already rationing health care in the U.S. If we are doing so great with our current health care system how come we do so poorly on so many rankings? You want me to make a decisssion based on one of your anecdotes instead of making it based on widely accepted research studies? Really? Don't hold your breath. I feel sorry for your Canadian friend, if his story is true. But you do understand Dave that coming from you after spreading so many fallacies, half truths, outright lies and not answering questions, that any intelligent person would have to be catious about taking you at your word. The fact is that well researched statistics contradict many of your statements. If Canadians provide much worst health care than we do, why do they rank 14 on life expectancy and we rank 37th? You know, facts are pesky little things.
Your arguments are all about emotions and conjecture. When will you bring facts to the table? If this "monstrosity", as you put it, passes you and I will be better off. BTW, who do you think pays for a lot, if not most, of that great research you say is going to go up in smoke if this bill passes? You and I already do with our tax dollars and have been doing it for a long time. I could go on and on, but I get a feeling that many of the arguments you attempt to make are not the real reasons why you oppose this bill. Dave, are you a teabagger? You sure do sound like one.
Wiki
Dave is factually challenged. He's been bumped from Wikipedia for his obsession with obfuscation.
Seems he has many obsessions
to go along with his persecution complex
He has standard extreme christian conservative beliefs
Once a christian conservative is convinced that something is true or right according to God, it is a done deal with him/her. Dave is this sort of individual on his many obsessions and probably gets reinforcement for his beliefs every Sunday morning between 11:00am - 12:00pm from the pulpit. I do not know why I bother to discuss/argue this point about abortion with him because of that. Guess I am just masochistic or something :)
I have had the opportunity to go to a number of extremely fundamental christian church services. In every case, I left totally convinced that 1). the preacher was talking directly to me and my evil ways and 2). positive that unless I changed my ways immediately, either the rapture was going to come in just a short amount of time and I am going to be doomed and/or if I did not convert to fundamental christianity and get "saved", I was going directly to hell. Truth is, each time I felt like I was inside a building full of cult members being told just what to say and think because "brother Raymond's" (preacher) interpretation of various verses in the Bible.
When someone is indoctrinated into that, well...you get a Dave. And, truth is, there is really nothing someone on a blog can say to convince him to look at certain issues from some view other than what he now has been brainwashed into believing is the word of Almighty God.
Just my take on our friend Dave here. He seems to be a nice enough guy, though. And, he sure presents his case here in an excellent way.
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“Discussion is an exchange of knowledge; argument is an exchange of ignorance" __ Robert Quillen
Correct
It shapes almost everything, but is especially intrusive around anything to do with sex and pleasure. Drugs are evil. Gay is eviler. Abortion is evilest. Repression in the extreme.
I digress on one thing,
"he sure presents his case here in an excellent way"
Never confuse eloquence with intelligence or facts. That is why critical thinking is so important and people like him need to be resplied.
So true, bob
Oh, yeah, I know what you are saying. I just wanted to give him a little compliment even though his thinking is AFU.
I have this little hang up about grammar and sentence structure etc. My mom (bless her soul) taught English. So, you have to understand where I am coming from. I guess you can call me a bit of a prude in that regard :).
___________________________________________________
“Discussion is an exchange of knowledge; argument is an exchange of ignorance" __ Robert Quillen
And since you are drawing parallels
Let me tell you how morally bankrupt I think people like you are. You are totally against abortions and apparently you are also opposed to public healthcare since you are using red herrings to oppose it, how are you going to take care of all those poor severly handicapped children that modern technology can help survive a pregnancy that without said technology would have never survived? And how many resources will helping those otherwise unviable babies will rob from the system and because of that lack of resources elsewhere a perfectly normal child willl die of a simple tooth abcess because he or she or his/her parents didn't have the resources to take him or her to a dentist? You know that is happening right now, don't you? You want to argue morality with me? I got a boatload to tell you about false morality and Bishops and Popes that live like kings and hide pedofiles and thousands of other moral crimes. Let me tell you who I will not take moral lessons from: pharisees. You know why nuns care about Health Care Reform? Because they are the ones that work and live with the poor every day and see the real missery.
You do seem to do your homework, Dave
That was one long diatribe, my man. Of course, you have to know that all of those points you made have been looked at and researched with legal scholars and legislative experts by the democratic leadership. I just believe that there is absolutely no way they are going (or are even considering) use the reconcilliation process if it is not constitutional in this instance. And, if it does come down to some kind of initiative that gets the bill done through some other means, there is no way they are just doing it with a half-ass effort without thoroughly researching any possible repercussions or constitutionality challenge in the courts.
Reading what you have written (and well written, I must say), it comes down to your opinion on the matter in a lot of ways.
___________________________________________________
“Discussion is an exchange of knowledge; argument is an exchange of ignorance" __ Robert Quillen
That's correct
Dave conveniently ignores one simple fact: What makes something constitutional or not is nothing if not a matter of opinion, specifically the opinions of nine human beings sitting on the US Supreme Court. Those humans, especially recently, have proven they are purely political animals with political agendas.
Full of shit, no matter how well written, is still full of shit.
"... it's what you know that isn't so." -Will Rogers
"It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you know that isn't so." - Will Rogers
James, one of your problems is that so much of what you know isn't so, and you just wrote a doozy of an example: "What makes something constitutional or not is nothing if not a matter of opinion."
WRONG!
Whether a law is constitutional is determined only by whether or not it conflicts with the U.S. or N.C. Constitution, as they were intended to be understood when written and ratified. If the law conflicts with either of the two Constitutions, then it is said to be "unconstitutional."
What makes a law constitutional or not is generally not a mere matter of opinion, for in most constitutional cases there is no genuine confusion about the originally intended meaning of the relevant constitutional provisions, or their applicability, only a question of whether the judge(s) or justices have the integrity to rule honestly.
If a court rules that a statute is constitutional when it actually does conflict with either of our two constitutions, then that does not make the statute constitutional, it merely makes the court wrong.
Likewise, if a court rules that a statute is unconstitutional when it actually does not conflict with either of our two constitutions, that does not make the statute unconstitutional, it just makes the court wrong.
There are several possibilities which can explain such a miscarriage of justice:
(1) The case might have been argued poorly, so that the court has incorrect or incomplete information upon which to base its decision.
(2) The judge(s) might have been incompetent.
(3) The judge(s) might have been dishonest.
Case (3) is the most troubling. If a court intentionally rules wrongly, it means the judge(s) or justices are unfit for their positions and should be impeached -- even more clearly so than in case (2). For there is hope that an incompetent judge can be educated, but there is little hope that a crooked judge can be rehabilitated. (That's why the activist left wing of the SCOTUS should be impeached.)
Jefferson (founder of the predecessor of the Democratic Party) had it right about this; how sad he would be to see what has become of his Party today:
"Our peculiar security is in the possession of a written Constitution. Let us not make it a blank paper by construction." -Thomas Jefferson
"The true key for the construction of everything doubtful in a law is the intention of the law-makers. This is most safely gathered from the words, but may be sought also in extraneous circumstances provided they do not contradict the express words of the law." -Thomas Jefferson, 1808
"On every question of construction carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed." -Thomas Jefferson
"Strained constructions... loosen all the bands of the Constitution." -Thomas Jefferson
"One single object... [will merit] the endless gratitude of society: that of restraining the judges from usurping legislation." -Thomas Jefferson
"The Constitution on which our Union rests, shall be administered by me [as President] according to the safe and honest meaning contemplated by the plain understanding of the people of the United States at the time of its adoption -- a meaning to be found in the explanations of those who advocated, not those who opposed it, and who opposed it merely lest the construction should be applied which they denounced as possible." -Thomas Jefferson
"I do then, with sincere zeal, wish an inviolable preservation of our present federal Constitution, according to the true sense in which it was adopted by the States, that in which it was advocated by its friends, and not that which its enemies apprehended, who therefore became its enemies." -Thomas Jefferson to Elbridge Gerry, 1799
(The above are all from http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff1020.htm)
Madison, Hamilton & Jay had it right, too:
"It can be of no weight to say that the courts, on the pretense of a repugnancy, may substitute their own pleasure to the constitutional intentions of the legislature. This might as well happen in the case of two contradictory statutes; or it might as well happen in every adjudication upon any single statute. The courts must declare the sense of the law; and if they should be disposed to exercise WILL instead of JUDGMENT, the consequence would equally be the substitution of their pleasure to that of the legislative body. The observation, if it prove any thing, would prove that there ought to be no judges distinct from that body." - Federalist #78
"Until the people have, by some solemn and authoritative act, annulled or changed the established form [of the Constitution], it is binding upon themselves collectively, as well as individually; and no presumption, or even knowledge, of their sentiments, can warrant their representatives in a departure from it, prior to such an act." - Federalist #78
We require from the courts "an inflexible execution of the national laws" -Federalist #81
"The rules of legal interpretation are rules of COMMON SENSE, adopted by the courts in the construction of the laws. The true test, therefore, of a just application of them is its conformity to the source from which they are derived" [i.e., conformity to the intention of the people who enacted the law] - Federalist #83
Unfortunately, they were overly optimistic about judicial integrity and congressional backbone:
"There never can be danger that the judges, by a series of deliberate usurpations on the authority of the legislature, would hazard the united resentment of the body intrusted with it, while this body was possessed of the means of punishing their presumption, by degrading them from their stations." -Federalist #81
Dave
The magic circle of Constitutional government going Hamilton way
Madison, Hamilton & Jay had it right, too* ncdave4life
Except for Hamilton. You do realize that you out quoted yourself about Jefferson and paper currency along with massive government debt and his anti-federalist viewpoint about a private national bank [It's called the Federal Reserve nowdays] that Hamilton promoted and gave his life for! Hamilton was no friend of Constitutional government...
Oh yes.
I meant that they were right about that, not about everything. They were smart, but not infallible, and sometimes they were quite spectacularly wrong or eccentric.
Jefferson, for instance, also said this:
Doncha just love it? :-)
Game, set, match
.
Says who? You? Are you really The Chosen One to say what "they" were right about and what "they" were wrong about?
Whether it involves god, Jefferson, the Constitution, or your own fetus fetish, there is no one interpretation of anything. Never has been, never will be. In Erhman's "Misquoting Jesus," the Bible itself emerges as a miasma of paternalistic revisionism, with typos by scribes working centuries after Jesus lived, translating fables passed along like whisper down the valley. How else could we arrive at a religion based on an innocent virgin being raped by a magic ghost? Do you have any idea how sick that sounds to non-believers?
If you think the Constitution is not open to interpretation, you haven't been paying attention. Why even have a court system if everything written into the Constitution is obvious and self-evident.
Let's face it, Dave, you're a mess of
contradictions, otherwise known as full of shit. Just like the rest of us.
This just totally pisses me off, Dave
Look, I am trying hard here to give you some credit for making good posts and for articulating your position well. But, you have just taken a step over the line with me with this:
There is absolutely NOTHING "tired" about people believing that the issue is not about being "pro-abortion" or "anti-abortion". It is about "pro-CHOICE" and "anti-CHOICE".
How many times do people have to make that point to you and just why is it that you do not acknowledge that it is a legitimate point when discussing this very divisive issue?
The PERFECT statement by pro-CHOICE people is "if you don't believe in abortion, then don't have one". The procedure is L E G A L. What part of that do you just NOT grasp? What part of the statements people make about not wanting someone's religious beliefs being imposed on Americans do you not understand?
You are now sounding out to us religious right talking points and rhetoric on the matter and, guess what....it is just that: "religious right talking points and rhetoric"...nothing more.
Give it a rest already.
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“Discussion is an exchange of knowledge; argument is an exchange of ignorance" __ Robert Quillen
Are you pro-choice
Are you pro-choice with respect to spousal abuse?
Or only with respect to killing unborn babies?
If I made the argument that the morality of wife-beating was a matter of opinion, and you have no right to impose your morality on me, would you find that persuasive?
Why, then, do you think I should find persuasive the argument that the morality elective abortion is a matter of opinion, and I have no right to impose my morality on you?
The fundamental fact is that IF spousal abuse is Wrong, and abused spouses deserve protection, then spousal abuse should be illegal. It is not (and should not be) persuasive to say, "if you think wife-beating is wrong, then don't beat your wife (but don't tell me not to beat mine)."
Likewise, if elective abortion is Wrong, and unborn babies deserve protection, then elective abortion should be illegal. It is not persuasive to say, "if you think abortion is wrong, then don't have one (but don't tell me not to have one)."
You cannot separate morality from law. The law is supposed to reflect moral truths, such at the truth that abusing the weak or killing the defenseless is Wrong.
That's indented too far
All this Dave-bashing & Christian-bashing has caused so much indentation that the line lengths are down to just a couple of words. So, in the interest of readability, I'm out-denting this. (Is that a word, Foxtrot?)
BasqueBob asked, "If Canadians provide much worst health care than we do, why do they rank 14 on life expectancy and we rank 37th?"
Actually, you're confusing lifespan with UN ranking of healthcare quality. But, either way, you're wrong.
As Will Rogers said, "It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you know that isn't so." You know a lot of things that aren't so.
For instance, you "know" that infant mortality rates in the USA are higher than elsewhere, and lifespans are lower. But you're wrong.
Two main things drag down American life expectancy:
#1 is infant mortality statistics, which are skewed by differences in how stillborn & newborn deaths are counted.
#2 is deaths among young people, which usually are unrelated to health care.
W/r/t #1, the reason that infant mortality rates appear lower in other countries is that they don't count some of their dead newborns.
In the USA, any baby who draws a breath is given world-class medical care, and if he dies his death is counted as infant morality, no matter how tiny or premature he was. But in most countries with socialized medicine, if a baby is born sufficiently premature, he is given no special care, and is counted as stillborn, and doesn't count toward the infant mortality rate, even if he lives for hours. The European health care systems save a lot of money that way, but they also break a lot of parents' hearts.
Ironically, the fact that American at-risk babies get better, more aggressive care than do European at-risk babies, and have a better chance of survival, is the basis for the liberals' claim that America has worse lifespans and infant mortality rates.
This statistical slight-of-hand also serves to artificially inflate foreign average lifespans, making it appear as though they live longer than Americans, which is also untrue. This false claim, in turn, is often cited by liberal supporters of government-controlled heath care as proof that socialized health care is better than American health care, when, actually, the opposite is true.
W/r/t #2, when teens and young adults die in the United States, their health care is rarely to blame. They tend to die from automobile accidents, homicides, etc.
If you compare the life expectancies of the elderly -- the people whose lifespans are most dependent on quality of medical care -- the USA is best in the world.
Here's an article which touches on some of these issues.
GregFlynn wrote, "Dave... [has] been bumped from Wikipedia for his obsession with obfuscation."
Actually, I'm neither banned nor blocked on Wikipedia. I just got tired of having my work immediately reverted by the leftists who run that place and insist that anything with political or ideological overtones reflect the leftist party line, without regard to the truth, or even to Wikipedia's own rules.
I do somewhat obsess about the truth however, and obfuscation of the truth does, indeed, annoy me.
Dave
It must be really hard to live with yourself then
healthcare belongs at the State level
Even though the Healthcare Bill is popular among many North Carolinians, it doesn't belong at the federal level for a variety of reasons. First, and probably most important, is the fact that it is unlawful and contrary to the Constitution. Second, even if it were lawful, it is inefficient to have needless layers of bureaucracy especially considering the fact that this country is close to insolvency with our $100+ trillion debt counting unfunded mandates. When one's neighbors need help, do we call someone from Virginia or South Carolina to help them? Of course we don't. North Carolinians ought to take care of North Carolinians. Third, with all due respect to our representatives we send to Washington, we shouldn't allow them to make important personal decisions for us. They are no smarter, and much harder to communicate with than our local representatives in Raleigh. If we have a problem, Raleigh is a short drive, and our representatives are accessible. I would sleep much better at night knowing our representatives in Washington were doing nothing more than what We the People of North Carolina delegated to them to do. I'm not sure how Larry Kissell, Mike McIntyre and the rest of our folks we sent to Washington voted on the Healthcare Bill, but I hope they voted "NO" on principle alone. Not because they are against healthcare, but because this is not an issue for the federal government. It is too important to the People of North Carolina to get this right. We must ensure we aren't wasting our hard earned money and that those within our State are getting the medical care they need without paying for back door deals and other lobbyist concerns that are very much a part of any government. Lobbyists are much easier to control at the local level. Since when have true liberals been so quick to give up our liberty to a small group of professional politicians located outside our own State? Since when have true liberals demanded that someone must buy something simply because a small group of professional politicians and lobbyists from outside our own State say so? We really ought to think about the impact of this major decision and whether or not North Carolina wants to be subservient to the federal government. There was a day, not long ago, when the federal government was supposed to serve North Carolina, not the other way around.
I agree
And I'm sick and tired of all these military bases and "troops" living in our state.
/sarcasm
Federal Occupation?
"And I'm sick and tired of these military bases..."
I know this comment was intended as sarcasm, but I think there may be a valid issue here. First of all, is it really necessary to continue this overwhelming presence of federal troops spread throughout the South? The present military base alignment is a result of Reconstruction, and to keep them "rebels" at bay; basically military occupation of the South. I think all of us recognize the need to have a strong and capable military to address threats to our sovereignty, but do we require this large of a federal force, and does it still need to primarily occupy the South? I think I agree with the Founders that the quartering of a very large federal military force isn't necessarily in our best interest.
Nor is it wise to have our economy
so dependent on the war machine. I say this as a former Navy officer and airborne liaison to the Marines and Army. An economy that thrives on militarism is fundamentally unstable - not to mention morally unbalanced.
Oh, brother. Here we go again
Look, Thinker, health care is a responsibility of BOTH the federal government AND the states. Argue this bill all you want with all the talking points from the conservative republicans.
And, that is all I have to say on that. Everything else has already been said time and time again.
It passed, it is not perfect and it will be worked on and tweaked and improved as we go along just like Medicare. Get over it.
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“Discussion is an exchange of knowledge; argument is an exchange of ignorance" __ Robert Quillen
Liberty isn't a Republican Issue
Foxtrot, with all due respect, if liberty is nothing more than a Republican talking point, then we've all lost and debate is futile. First of all, I don't recall the Republicans saying they refused to deal with healthcare because it wasn't a federal issue. If I recall, they simply had a different plan. I have no use for the federalists regardless of party since both parties in Washington seem to be in bed with one another in their never ending attempts at stripping our liberty at the point of a bayonet. I'm simply a citizen of North Carolina and a registered Democrat that cares about my fellow North Carolinians. There isn't anything for me to "get over" since I'm not, personally, having difficulty with any of it, other than contemplating how this will affect my children and fellow North Carolinians in the aggregate. I've long gotten used to the fact that today's landscape is basically two political parties fighting over who gets to coerce who. Regardless of outcome, it seems half of the People are going to get hurt. There was a day when our party, the Democrats, looked out for the least among us and ensured that the special interests in Washington were held at bay. It appears that instead of learning from the mistakes of the Republicans, we have decided to join the party of Lincoln in the game of competing over who can be more despotic. What is currently going on in Washington isn't liberalism, and is contrary to taking care of our fellow citizens. The only "tweaking" that will occur is when the other side takes power and then it is our turn to bow to our new federalist masters in Washington. Personally, I'd prefer to be left alone in order to pursue my own happiness free of tyranny from either Republican or these so-called "new" Democrats. I'm actually very proud that many of our Southern Democrats stood firm and didn't fall for this nonsense and voted "no" to this additional power grab by a few in a far off land. I don't now, nor ever will, need a Republican or Democrat dictating to me how best to take care of my neighbors. I will continue to do so, as other true liberals throughout the land will, regardless of what any federal agent armed with bayonet says. I will continue to teach my children right from wrong and instruct them to always stand up and don't be afraid to do what is right regardless of what the federal government dictates. I will never waiver in teaching them the values of loving their neighbor and fighting for the least able and capable among us, while others continue to build and propagate the glories of a strong centralized all powerful benevolent plantation. I fear this power will one day be adopted by those in Washington that do not share our ideas of freedom and liberty. And by the way, Medicare and Social Security are complete disasters and have yet to be fixed. This nation is nearly insolvent with our $100+ trillion dollar debt of unfunded mandates. Unfortunately, for both Republican and Democrat, we have squandered our children's inheritance. God save America and our youth!
Keep god out of it
And get your facts straight.
Keep God out of it?
James, do you disapprove of a politician declaring, "We are God’s partner in matters of life and death," as part of a political pitch?
Yes
I do disapprove. Whether it's Obama, NCThinker or you, I disapprove ... and strongly.
For all the magical gods human beings have created over the centuries, the idea that any of them would care what we think is absurd on its face.
If you can't make your case without invoking god, you can't make your case. And yes, pandering on the left is no less offensive than pandering on the right.
Well,
we are offended for different reasons, James. You are offended because you don't believe in God. I don't believe in arrogantly declaring myself to be His partner, implying that I am on His level.
I'm reminded of a bumper sticker:
It is laudable when someone seeks to serve God, and humbly do His work. It is hubris to think that God is your cheerleader.
Dave
Wow, Thinker
You sure did take a whole lot from what I posted. I didn't say anything about liberty being an issue for just one party nor did I say republicans don't think health care is an important issue or refused to deal with it because it wasn't a federal issue..going to a couple of your remarks.
Medicare and Social Security are NOT "complete disasters", as you say. They do have funding problems because of shinnanigans from both parties taking from social security in large part and because of the immense number of people living far longer than expected with regard to Medicare..in part. Nope, neither are perfect and that is why we have a government..to hopefully get them right and back into the black.
Please do not put words in my mouth when I post. Deal with what I say and not what you think is behind what I'm saying. Thanks.
___________________________________________________
“Discussion is an exchange of knowledge; argument is an exchange of ignorance" __ Robert Quillen
Liberty means believing in what you want
It is a shame that some immediately get defensive if one utters the word "god". Perhaps it is because the word brings to mind thoughts of a Catholic nun racking one's knuckles with a ruler. Just because one may or may not believe in a power higher than man, should not elicit excitement or discredit a point of view. The post doesn't concern man-made religion nor should the premise of the post simply be dismissed due to a simple one syllable word. As a liberal, I believe each and every individual should be free to chose whether or not they believe and then determine for themselves what that faith entails free from insult by others. I respect both those that believe in a higher power and those that believe intelligence terminates at the level of the human brain. To each his or her own. If I've read too much into Foxtrot's post, then I'll be the first to apologize for misrepresenting his position. Perhaps Foxtrot and I simply disagree with regards to where sovereignty resides and what We the People have delegated to others. I believe that liberty is purely a personal issue as long as one's actions do not affect other's liberty. I reject slavery, indentured servitude, or any other flavor or source of bondage. I do not have an affinity for slavery at all and prefer to live my life without permission from others. If one choses to be homosexual or do drugs, so be it. Individuals ought to be free to engage in whatever activity they so chose, if they are truly free. I think the only purpose of government is to secure my liberty, not dictate or define it. I disagree that We the People need the federal government to take care of North Carolinians, or tell us what and how to take care of our neighbors. I read once that North Carolina had the highest per capita of advanced degrees in the entire Union. I believe Washington DC has the highest per capita of lawyers in the Union. I think I'd much rather engage in healthy debate and determine what is best for North Carolina with fellow Tar Heels rather than far off in a locale full of strange lawyers. No disrespect towards lawyers, but I prefer to have meaningful discussions with my neighbors involving resolution of problems without a bunch of lawyers in the room. As far as Medicare and Social Security are concerned, if they "have funding problems" then they don't work, and are not only "complete disasters" but are most likely being managed contrary to the law as applied towards any pension plan or financial account. None of us could operate the finances of our own households or businesses the way the federal government does, or we would quickly find ourselves sharing cell space with Bernie Madoff. A ponzie scheme is a ponzie scheme regardless of where it originates. Ponzie schemes do not magically become "good" simply because they are sanctioned by the federal government. Is the federal government above the law? Should not one Law apply to all? Do the citizens of North Carolina have the same health benefits of those that purportedly represent us in Washington? Again, this doesn't seem to replicate anything I've ever read concerning liberty or liberalism. The South has a long and deep tradition of looking out for the interests of the individual and defending the inalienable Rights of man. I'd hate to see our Democratic Party throw away inalienable Rights for watered down government granted privileges given and taken away at the whim of a few.
Interesting analysis
Since you've set aside arguments about constitutional interpretations (thank you) and focused on what you believe, let me ask you two questions:
First, do you believe that state government should have the authority to dictate what local jurisdictions can and cannot do with regard to taxation, public school policy, local services, etc.?
Second, by "a few" do you mean the majority of elected officials in Congress, the majority of Americans, or just people you happen to disagree with?
Personal "belief" less important than "liberty"
James, I'll do my best to answer your questions. For the record, I certainly do not consider myself an expert in what is, and is not, Constitutional. But with that said, I also don't believe that 9 people dressed in long black robes have been given some sort of magical powers either. I believe the whole point of the Constitution is that it is for each and every sovereign individual to consider and engage in healthy debate to ensure that liberty for all is guaranteed. I don't believe in kings. I don't believe that individuals are nothing more than subjects of the federal government. I don't believe the intent of the Constitution ever was, or is now, meant to oppress the liberty of individual Americans. I believe what I have read and studied; that each and every individual is sovereign and that the State represents our collective interest. I believe that the citizens of each and every State can choose to do what they will with their own liberty. If the sovereign individuals from a particular State determine to tax themselves, so be it. If the individuals of a particular State determine to legalize abortion, so be it. If the individuals of a particular State determine to recognize and sanction homosexual marriage, so be it. I believe the individuals of any particular State are free to determine their own destiny free from interference from the federal government. I also believe that the Constitution concurs and even established this very system as I've attempted to describe to the best of my meager ability. I do mean by a "few" those that we send to the federal government to do only those things delegated to them in Art 1 Sec 8 of the contract we all agreed to and only change by the amendment process. Personally, I prefer people that disagree with me because I prefer freedom and the free flow exchange of differing opinions. I find those that agree with me boring and subsequently would do nothing more than perpetuate my own ignorance. How are we to grow in understanding and intellect if we do nothing but sit around campfires with our ideological clones singing Khum By Yah? I'm a little baffled by your closing comment, and perhaps I simply misunderstood it. If so I apologize in advance, but are you suggesting that I would prefer only those "people I agree with"? If so, you clearly do not know me. My personal beliefs are mine and have nothing to do with what I think is important; namely that everyone has a Right to their individual liberty and own set of beliefs.
I wasn't asking about state vs. federal
I was asking about municipal vs. state. North Carolina's constitution grants virtually all important powers to the state government, effectively neutering local governments in their actions. There is no disagreement about that interpretation.
I'm asking whether you believe that's fair and aligned with your views of liberty.
State Government and Constitution
Our Constitution is for the sovereign Citizens of North Carolina, and therefore can and should be amended as necessary to secure our rights. If we feel that our State Constitution does not allow our counties and local municipalities the ability to care for our needs, to include the education of our children, then the People of North Carolina ought do whatever is necessary in order to best achieve those objectives. The objective, of course, is that all issues, are always best resolved at the local level, if possible. Counties and local municipalities that are allowed freedom to compete for excellence always do better than larger institutions that have their hands tied by distant bureaucrats. I hope this answers your question.
It does
Thanks.
There are some angry people now about health care reform
I have received three emails from fellow e-friends about the passage of the HCR bill and let me tell you, they are not good emails. One actually sounded like it threatened me personally for putting out a mass-email to all my e-friends supporting it.
This is not going to be just another bill that some people do not like and eventually just go on to the next subject, I think. I can see some deep feelings in some people that really do not normally get involved in politics and so forth. This scares me, to be honest. I wonder where the opponents will be headed now that this has passed.
I worry for our country, folks. I see this issue as far more divisive than abortion or any other issue I have seen in my __ years. This is going to get ugly, me thinks.
Strong feelings
I had strong feelings when Bush lied us into his Iraq war. Strong feelings are good because they can drive action. But strong feelings loaded into an assault rifle or a shotgun, well that's a different story.
You're right to be worried, though. The right wing is nothing if not a bastion of war-profiteers. A whole bunch of people will get rich arming America for the next civil war.
In times past, responsible leaders on the right would clean up their own mess. But nowadays, they're not only refusing to clean it up, they themselves are fomenting violence. Slackers like Richard Burr, standing silent on the sidelines while HIS party goes postal. What a fucking loser.
I'm ready, though. All that airborne Marine training may finally come in handy.
Rubbish
President Bush most certainly did not "lie us into the Iraq war."
This is what the Democrats were saying, back during the Clinton Administration, and the beginning of President Bush's first term:
"We urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions
(including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's
refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
- Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998
"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002
"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
- President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998
"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
- President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998
"Iraqi's a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."
- Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998
"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten
times since 1983."
- Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998
"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
- Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998
"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
- Madeline Albright, Clinton's Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999
"There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of an elicit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."
- Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL) and others, December 5, 2001
"How close is the peril of Iraqi WMD? ... Within four or five years [Iraq] could have the capability to threaten most of the Middle East and parts of Europe with missiles armed with nuclear weapons containing fissile material produced indigenously--and to threaten U.S. territory with such weapons delivered by non-conventional means, such as commercial shipping containers. If it managed to get its hands on sufficient quantities of already produced fissile material, these threats could arrive much sooner."
- Robert Einhorn, Clinton's Assistant Secretary of State for Non-proliferation, in testimony to the Senate Governmental Affairs Committee, March 1, 2002
"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them."
- Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002
"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002
"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002
"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002
"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
- Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002
"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force-- if necessary-- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002
"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002
"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do"
- Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002
"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002
"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass
destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real.."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003
So now you want to pretend that President Bush lied??? Even the liberal Chicago Tribune says that's nonsense:
Given all of that, Dave
Dave, if (a big "if") all of that was true, do you think that possibly...just possibly...there would have been another way to deal with Saddam Hussein? Was war the only answer? Was that what the International community really wanted? Be honest, my friend. With all the American lives lost and all the bucks spent, are you truly certain this was our best approach in dealing with Iraq?
Me? I do not think so.
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“Discussion is an exchange of knowledge; argument is an exchange of ignorance" __ Robert Quillen
The problem was...
...that Saddam was a genocidal loose cannon. He was filling his country with mass graves, he was exterminating the Marsh Arabs, he had a history of invading his neighbors & using poison gas to massacre enemies, real and imagined, foreign and domestic.
He was also stockpiling uranium. It now appears that he was much further from building nukes than we believed at the time, but, OTOH, Qaddafi was much closer to building them than we believed at the time, and Qaddafi gave up his nuclear weapons program because we took out Saddam. So the fact is that by invading Iraq we eliminated a nuclear threat, just not the one we expected.
What's more, Saddam kept popping off SAM missiles at our planes, which were patrolling the non-fly zones -- acts of war, every time.
What's more, it seemed that the only way to make him marginally behave was to keep 100,000 troops camped in Saudi Arabia, and that we simply could not do. The Saudis wouldn't have permitted it, even if we'd been able to manage it. It was a safe bet that if we withdrew, as soon as our troops were gone Saddam would be back to his old ways, and probably emboldened by his victory. So we either had to either use out troops to oust him or give up and go home, and let him do what he wished, to whomever he wished -- a catastrophe, sooner or later, for certain.
President Bush tried hard to find a peaceful solution. Right up to the end he offered Saddam the opportunity to go into comfortable exile, and save his country from war. But Saddam refused.
Really, I don't see what we could have done differently. Do you? (Obviously, I'm talking about the invasion, not how we handled the occupation & pacification, which could have been done better.)
Tell me honestly, what you think we could have done, other than invade?
I think you are so delusional
President Bush lied hard to find a warful solution. Neocon dreams of oil and profits for Cheney's Halliburton dancing in his head he blundered ahead despite the weapons inspectors reports and the millions of people in the streets all over the world condemning his action.
Could we have just NOT invaded Iraq? Instead, just trap Bin Laden in his cave in Tora Bora when we had the chance? It's just that that would not have given Bush his entree into the Middle East that he wanted so much.
Since Saddam was installed by the US backed CIA coup, he was our dictator after all.
Progressive Democrats of North Carolina
Sick
You're one sick zealot, Dave, and badly in need of a new screen name. Maybe ncdave4deathexceptforfetuses?
Saddam
Hussein's 20 year death toll is generally estimated at aprox. 2,000,000 (i.e., avg. 275/day). Some sources estimate more, some less, but all sources agree it exceeded 1,000,000. Here are some links about his slaughters: NY Times, CSMonitor, Bruce Harris, Library of Congress, of Iraqi Kurds: (1)
(2), of
Iraqi Shiites, of Baghdad residents, in invasion of Iran, in mass graves: (1) (2) (3) (4) (5), genocide of Marsh Arabs
Libya's Muammar Gaddafi was working on nuclear weapons, too. Not anymore!
We also now know that Saddam's had strong terrorist links
Plus, though we found no stockpiles, we have him on tape discussing his WMDs. The first 12 hours are available at www.intelligencesummit.org, FrontpageMag.com has commentary/summary, and here's a blog.
What I wonder is why progressives don't care about such facts and such slaughter? Why do they make up nonsense about the USA being responsible instead of the killers -- or even, in some extreme cases, make up fantastical nonsense about the CIA putting Saddam in power to begin with?
Why do progressives yawn at the news of genocide and hundreds of mass graves, just as they don't care about the slaughter of unborn babies in this country?
Think about the magnitude of it: 275 violent deaths per day (on average), directly caused by Saddam Hussein, for twenty years. It is mind boggling, horrifying. And you guys just don't care?
How did y'all ever manage to get such incredibly hard hearts? I'm a bleeding-heart conservative. All the bleeding-hearts seem to be conservatives, these days. I miss the "bleeding-heart liberals" of yesteryear.
Dave and his biggest enabler was?
Ronald Reagan. Remember who sold him all the chemicals to build the WMD's when he had them? Ronald Reagan. Dave if you want to play this game you never are going to win. Both sides, Democratic and Republican administrations, have played less than laudable roles at different times under the guise of national security while they were really promoting the interests of their corporate masters. No one is a virgin in this game.
Why do so many leftists just make things up
Why do so many leftists just make things up, to smear the USA?
Saddam never got WMDs or any help making them from President Reagan or any other U.S. administration. That is vicious, delusional nonsense.
I still would like to know why leftists don't care about Saddam's genocidal campaign to exterminate the Marsh Arabs, the hundreds of mass graves filled with the bodies of Saddam's innocent victims, the millions of unborn American babies dying by choice, etc.? The things that break my heart don't seem to affect yours at all. Why is that? What ever happened to "bleeding-heart liberals."
I know how the Dodo bird became extinct. But what happened to the bleeding-heart liberals?
Make things up?
Who makes things up Dave? Here That document is quite well referenced. "Saddam never got WMDs or any help making them from President Reagan or any other U.S. administration." Really Dave? You might want to revise that belief. Dave, don't let facts get in the way of your delusions. "What ever happened to "bleeding-heart liberals."" Our hearts don't bleed for the same things than yours. BTW, didn't you read the part where I told you that there are no virgins in this game? Finally Dave, ignoring history and facts does not make you a better person or a better American.
Yeah, we made up Rummy's arms deals
talk about delusional.
Here's another documented source on the Reagan administration facilitating the sale of bio-chemical and bio-logical weapons to Iraq, which Saddam used on Iranians during the war and later on the Kurds.
Bush's Secret Mission. The New Yorker Magazine. November 2, 1992
http://www.newyorker.com/archive/1992/11/02/1992_11_02_064_TNY_CARDS_000...
Syd
During US occupation of Iraq casualties 100,000
That's a very conservative count.
Just today: 43 Killed, 67 Wounded
Progressive Democrats of North Carolina
So much for right to life
n/t
Unbelievable!
You "progressives" blame the United States for everything! The leftists attack voters in Iraq, and you even blame the USA for that!
That's a caricature of liberals, but you just gave us a perfect example of where it is absolutely true.
I guess you think that, since it is America's fault that Iraq now has free elections, it is also America's fault when the leftists there kill people to try to keep them from voting.
For your information, the ~2,000,000 people whose violent deaths are blamed on Saddam and his henchmen actually were caused by Saddam and his henchmen: They died in wars of conquest which he launched, in his genocidal campaigns to exterminate disfavored minorities, and in his purges of domestic enemies, real and imagined, and their families & friends & neighbors. It's not some bogus "excess deaths" calculation by leftist epidemiologists, and it doesn't count murders unconnected to Saddam & his henchmen. It is the people whose deaths Saddam really caused.
A Caricature
is the world you live in and how you distort logic. Like I told you earler: don't let facts get in the way of your delusions. No one here is defending Saddam or denying that he was a murderer, but you can't help yourself. Can you Dave? It makes you feel better, doesn't it Dave? Dave you want to know how fucked up the Reagan administration was: it was helping both sides kill each other, supplying the weponry, the intelligence and the chemicals that caused many of those terrible deaths you are talking about. You get that: helping both sides kill each other. No one here is saying the U.S. single handedly did it, but to deny that the U.S. played a significant role along with other countries, mind you, flies in the face of reality. All of this is well documented. Are you so weak Dave that you can't deal with well documented facts? You call yourself pro-life? I see Dave, you only care about some deaths. Other deaths you just can't deal with so you just deny it ever happened. How despicable of you Dave. You think you are more American or a better American than I am Dave? Fuck you Dave.
That was a good message
That was a good message because it does speak the truth in many ways. I know I am looked at being a republican here which I am but I am not stupid even though many will say so here. Your post is a good one and what you have said is true in a lot of ways. I do not like the way you put it but it is true anyway mostly.
I don't want to see it come
it was predicted a long time ago that we would only be destroyed from "within". But like everyone else, we are ready.
GW's 2nd Inaugural Address Comes to Mind
Could someone please explain to me the need to have US forces deployed in over 150 different countries on any given day spread throughout the world? What is this insatiable appetite we have for imperialism? Besides, isn't maintaining an empire rather expensive? Perhaps it is time to reconsider George Washington's 2nd Inaugural Address. One certainly can't say the man was a dove and didn't know first hand the cost of war. If anyone wasn't afraid to mix it up against the world's super power at the time, and against all odds, it was George Washington. Perhaps it's time to listen to some wisdom from the past.
Not being a big student of history...
What was in GW's second Inaugural Address? What was the wisdom in that?
Thanks, Thinker.
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“Discussion is an exchange of knowledge; argument is an exchange of ignorance" __ Robert Quillen
Farewell Address
Sorry folks; it's been a long week. George Washington's Farewell Address.
The 2nd is too short to address anything at all.
I need an adult beverage and a good meal.
I think we are alike in many ways, Thinker
Again, have a great weekend (even though it is only Thursday). I will be going "out of town" unless plans change, so I will be absent from the "chat" here through the weekend.
Foxy
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“Discussion is an exchange of knowledge; argument is an exchange of ignorance" __ Robert Quillen
GW predicts Chaos for the future at going away party?
George Washington's Farewell Address.
The 2nd is too short to address anything at all.* Thinking of Ancient history gives me headaches
True! It was simple and brief and he didn't speak since it was written to the citizens and Congress.
1. GW said to stay out foreign wars in Europe since it goes nowhere and those fools have been fighting among themselves for 1700 years and never settle anything about real liberty or freedom of religion for humanity.
2. The French Revolution was a bunch of crap and loaded with Secret Societies that wanted to rule the World and surpress real freedom with continue wars of aggression..... Sorted like Ike's farewell address. " The greatest enemy to the American people is the growth of the Military Industrial Complex
3 We are a Republic and not a Democracy where the rights of a minority is protected from the majority [mob rule]with the rule of law.
4. The other greatest enemy to the United States is factions or political parties that seek to destroy the Constitution of the United States......Sorted like the present or both major parties who claim to be defending the Consitution, but in fact is clobbing the Constitution and Individual rights of it's citizens
Looks like old GW had it right 240 years ago about the present idiots running the Federal and State governments into the ground on massive debt and with billion of laws that nobody has any idea what they are?
I had to be there as well,
I had to be there as well, probably we could have been in the same place at the same time :)
Ireland Tourism | Debt Advice UK
Hmmmm....interesting ID
n/t
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“Discussion is an exchange of knowledge; argument is an exchange of ignorance" __ Robert Quillen
The Madame is Right!
"Looks like old GW had it right 240 years ago about the present idiots running the Federal and State governments into the ground on massive debt and with billion of laws that nobody has any idea what they are?"
Couldn't have summed it up any better. It always amazes me how timeless and relevant the writings of our Founding Fathers are, especially today.
For more depth...
...especially w/r/t Constitutional law, I highly recommend the Federalist Papers.
Get a copy with a glossary, and read the glossary first, since a few words have changed. But they are very readable, and VERY educational.
thanks for nothing.
You used SEIU funds to run your campaign, you promised a lot, and you let a whole lot of hard working americans down. We do not have the luxury of disposable income in our house. People trusted you. WE WILL NOT BE SILENT!!!!!!
for any interested
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/18/AR201004... these people are really hard at work to oust him. please support his campaign whenever possible.