Pat McCrory's shaky voter suppression soapbox
Submitted by James on Thu, 12/29/2011 - 12:42pm
The Charlotte Observer thinks Pat McCrory is full of crap. So should you.
What Republicans are trying to accomplish is clear: The voters who are most likely to be affected by the voter ID law are low-income minorities, who tend to vote Democrat. It's the same motive that's behind Republican-led legislation across the country that restricts voting, including in North Carolina, where lawmakers are considering overturning Gov. Bev Perdue's veto of a voter ID bill. Some states are doing a particularly poor job of hiding their intentions, such as Texas, which rejected student IDs issued by state universities in its new voter ID law, but did give the nod to anyone with a handgun license.
I Respectively Disagree.
James,
I support Pat McCrory's efforts on voter IDs. It's not intended at all to suppress minority voting. It is intended to prevent fraudulent voting by applying the same requirement we all have to cash a check in any bank. Everybody cashes checks, right?
It's not a difficult requirement to show a voter ID to prove you are who you say you are. With all the illegal aliens living in NC, we need to guard against them voting, they are not entitled to vote. It is a privilege of citizenry to vote. Imagine how discouraged voters would become if they thought their votes were interfered by fraudulent voting. This occured in NC during the last election.
Absentee ballots
To whom does the voter show his identification when voting by absentee ballot?
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Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted. -- sign on Einstein's office wall.
I presume the local Board of Elections
One would have to make a formal request to get an absentee ballot. Right now all you have to do is send a written request to the Board of Elections. If this requirement became law, provisions would be required to show a photo ID to the Board of Elections before they issued you the ballot.
What?
So you are a sailor stationed onboard a guided missile cruiser deployed to Westpac. Or you are a Peace Corps worker on a two-year assignment in Botswana. How exactly do you meet the requirement to show a photo ID to the Board of Elections before they issue you a ballot?
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Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted. -- sign on Einstein's office wall.
Have you ever heard of something called a Notary Public?
I'm sure this could be legally worked out by having a notary witness your signature and check your photo ID to verify your identity. I'm sure there are such things on a ship. A Peace Corps worker could do the same thing via the local embassy. Where there is a will, there is a way!
The local embassy?
The local embassy might be hundreds of miles away. Who will pay for the Peace Corps worker to travel to the "local embassy"???
And there are no notaries onboard ships.
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Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted. -- sign on Einstein's office wall.
Voter ID
Frank, it seems your analogy is a little far off. Every American has a fundamental right to vote in elections. We do not have a fundamental right to have a bank account.Most banks will not even cash a check now unless you have an established account with them. Everyone also has to provide some form of identification when they register to vote and show proof of address, etc. IN NC we also have several layers already in place by Boards of Election to prevent voter fraud and it works quite well. Sure did work well in November when those few were caught voting twice. Remember that? The Republicans seem to want to preach the need for Voter ID for a problem that doesnt exist, however, during the Iowa caucuses next week, will the Republicans require voter ID for those who vote then? Betcha they dont! And what voter fraud was that Frank in the last election? They were caught without voter ID were they not?
Voter ID not a problem, it's a solution.
W, I didn't intend to equate bank accounts with the right to vote. All I was showing is that in our day to day routine we are required to show photo IDs like when we cash a check.
I'm reminded of a saying, "Where there is smoke, there is fire." How many other fraudulent voters are out there that weren't caught? How can we be sure that illegal aliens are not voting?
I've always been bothered that when I vote, nobody wants to see my voter registration card. It just seems to easy to commit fraud. More precautions are in order.
The issue we are discussing here is showing a voter ID in NC to vote, not in Iowa. That's for them to decide.
Reponse to Frank
Thats for them to decide? A little hypocritical there isnt it Frank? In your words with your sayings here..." It should matter, whats good for the goose should be good for the gander"
Why do you think W?
Why should we tell the people of Iowa how they handle their voting process? We are discussing the law in North Carolina, not the nation.
But yes in my opinion everyone should show a photo ID.
And I ask again...
....what about the voter in Botswana, working for the Peace Corps, or the sailor in the Indian Ocean?
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Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted. -- sign on Einstein's office wall.
Again I answer...
there is more than one way to skin a cat. A solution can be found. If there is a will, there is a way.
Certainly the new voter ID law would need to work out a process for those cases you mentioned. I'm not writing the law.
Putting the cart before the horse
The law is already written, passed the legislature, and has been vetoed by the governor.
The law has absolutely zero requirement for an absentee voter to show an ID. Why? Because there is no "solution" to be found.
"A solution can be found." Well, you are a smart guy...do you have a solution? A "law" can't work out a process.....lawmakers have to work out the process, with input from smart people like you.
What you've come up with so far...
1. Notarized signatures on the absentee ballots. Well, check out Woman Charged with Forging Car Titles. Notary fraud, particularly with car titles, is apparently a significant problem in North Carolina. Also, would your process recognize notaries licensed in other states? That has been a particular issue in sorting through documents in the wave of foreclosures, with robo-signing of documents accompanied by notary fraud.
2. Missionaries, Peace Corps workers, other workers with various NGO's, etc. would have a very difficult time in many places of the world getting signatures on an absentee ballot authenticated. A friend of mine is a former Navy nurse, who works from time to time with an NGO in Ethiopia and Eritrea. To require people like her to get to the American Embassy or Consulate (which may be hundreds of miles away) in order to exercise their right to vote would be onerous indeed.
The notion that "someone will work out the details" is acknowledgement of an inability to understand the issue.
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Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted. -- sign on Einstein's office wall.
Non issue
Voter ID is a solution looking for a problem ... at a cost that a conservative like you should find abhorrent. Based on experience in other states, the proposed legislation will cost approximately $7 million per year to implement ... which translates into about a million bucks for each illegal vote prevented.
More to the point, there is no evidence that illegal voting is going on. None. Not even by the scary brown people who will be the majority in this state within a couple of generations.
I'll say this, Mr. Burns. You are at least consistent in your reactionary politics, with an opinion to refute every fact that's fired across your bow. Keep digging in your heels with uninformed positions like your embrace of Voter Suppression and it won't be long before you have us all trained to ignore you.
Discussions with you remind me of discussion with my evangelical siblings, which have evaporated into nonexistence. When they prefaces their comments with "I believe" or "I have faith," the best I can do is roll my eyes and move on to talking about the weather. You may "believe" illegal voting is a problem, but that doesn't make it so.
James
PS Do you even know any illegal immigrants? I know plenty, and I will say without fear of contradiction that NONE of them would ever consider showing up to vote in any election. They may be here illegally, but they're not stupid.
Do good. Be nice. Have fun.
Reply to James
James, I'm certain we could find a way to issue IDs to people who don't have drivers license at no additional cost. We could ask the citizens who do not have driver's licenses to report to the Department of Motor Vehicles and receive your photo ID with a statement, "Not authorized for Driving in NC". How does something like that cost millions of dollars? The system is in place and won't cost a dime.
James are you not interested in all from hearing differing point of views? There are facts that support my point of view as well.
Yes the previous poster, W Jones mentioned that the people in NC who were involved with voter fraud were caught. But how do we know that others out there voted fraudulently and were not caught? This is a simple fix by asking voters to show a photo ID.
Yes I know illegal immigrants and I am friends with them and respect them as people but they are still not citizens and should not vote.
The Driver's license office
Looked up online...driver's license offices in Clay and Alleghany counties are open one day a week. Driver's license offices in Bertie and Currituck counties are open one day a month....I didn't check all 100 counties, but I'm sure you get the point.
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Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted. -- sign on Einstein's office wall.
Reply to Frank
Yes the previous poster, W Jones mentioned that the people in NC who were involved with voter fraud were caught. But how do we know that others out there voted fraudulently and were not caught? This is a simple fix by asking voters to show a photo ID.
Yes I know illegal immigrants and I am friends with them and respect them as people but they are still not citizens and should not vote. Frank Burns
Psst! Frank All Boards of Elections in NC have the same verification process.All ballots are checked and double checked for duplication before they are even certified. The system works well! The solution is not spending money to generate a photo ID. Also, all DMV offices in NC do not issue a license at the DMV any longer. They are now all issued by Central Processing in Raleigh and mailed. Generating the photo, processing, and mailing costs money! They dont give that stuff away Frank!
As James mentioned, they arent stupid. The Problem is when YOU walk in an emergency room and see those brown people you automatically think they are illegal. Thats the problem! Actually, in all my years of voting, I have never seen an illegal alien voting. Dont worry Frank! The Tea Party has scared you into that line of thinking.
Psst W......
You easily get a printout on the voting record of the people within your district to see how they voted. If resident A has moved and illegal alien B knows that, he can just say that he is resident A. Tell me how the verification process would catch that?
I'm confident a low cost solution can be developed between DMV and central processing. As I understand it, the group people who don't have drivers license if not a large number. It's difficult for me to see that this would cost millions of dollars.
W, how do you know that you have never seen an illegal alien vote? Do you not associate with those brown people? I do.
The Tea Party has no interest in this issue. The Tea Party wants the government to become smaller and live within it's means, like we have to do.
Frank
You easily get a printout on the voting record of the people within your district to see how they voted. If resident A has moved and illegal alien B knows that, he can just say that he is resident A. Tell me how the verification process would catch that?
Frank Burns
And what would be the great almighty advantage of doing something like that Frank? How many people have been caught using someone elses ID in NC for voting? Thats already a felony in NC. Your assuming illegal aliens are stupid right Frankie?
What good would it do for an illegal alien to vote anyway. He/she isnt going to gain anything from it since in NC illegal aliens by federal law arent entitled to services. Think voting for your local Mayor or Congressman will get you services.
Your flying off the deep end here Frank with your conspiracy theories.
Dubya.
What conspiracy theory? It happens and I want it to stop.
http://www.thecuttingedgenews.com/index.php?article=691 "In 2005, the U.S. Government Accountability Office found that up to 3 percent of the 30,000 individuals called for jury duty from voter registration rolls over a two-year period in just one U.S. district court were not U.S. citizens. "
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080505131755AAJfzmD
http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrationissuecente...
Facts on voter fraud!
A major probe by the Justice Department between 2002 and 2007 failed to prosecute a single person for going to the polls and impersonating an eligible voter, which the anti-fraud laws are supposedly designed to stop. Out of the 300 million votes cast in that period, federal prosecutors convicted only 86 people for voter fraud.
Do good. Be nice. Have fun.
Not prosecuted
Yes, I'm sure if it is not prosecuted or caught,it didn't really happen. Rape victims would surely agree.
Bad analogy
Aside from the fact that you're using an issue that has adversely impacted the lives of some 1 in 5 women/girls in our country to give credence to an act that will adversely impact the voting rights of some of those very same women, you're also ignoring some glaring differences in the "whys" of underreporting and non-prosecution.
Fear of retribution, fear of social stigma, inability to prove "beyond a reasonable doubt" to a jury that's been steeped in the moral ambiguity of our borderline misogynistic society. You'll find none of those powerful forces at play in the voter fraud formula.
But even if we grant you that James' numbers above are missing some prosecutions, and we increase them tenfold, that's still only a fraction of 1% of votes cast fraudulently.
It's not just a red herring. If we eat that fish we'll get sick.
No the bad analogy IMO is
No the bad analogy IMO is accepting the stats as there is no problem. Be against it for discrimination purpose,but please don't come off as if it isn't reported it didn't happen which I think is insulting for victims of unreported crime.